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  • Working for the guard without pay

    I have read a few threads around here about people asking if they should go AWOL, give their command the finger, call an IG etc etc. Not really looking for anything that crazy if I can avoid it.

    Here is my issue: I am a drilling National Guardsman and am semi-continuously being "not ordered" to complete tasks; military training, pt (I am not a failure), or go to my NCOs gym (he is the owner/proprietor) outside of scheduled drilling time. While I can't argue with PTing being a good thing, I can argue with basically all of the rest of it. So my question is, can I be ordered by an NCO (e-5) to preform training activities outside of regular drilling schedule without compensation?

    I have looked into orders on this and am finding them vague, but as I am new to the Army I am not precisely well versed on where to look.

  • #2
    Re: Working for the guard without pay

    Like signing the head count sheet or participating in RMA, very technically, no you don't have to but there is a consequence. You're probably going to end up doing death by PowerPoint briefs for topics that you can whip out a far shorter time on your own, then out doing the cool stuff you signed up for. Also, if you do it on your own some of it may count for promotion points or you can get retirement points out of it. Or worse, I had a battalion commander put out that if the Soldiers didn't do the briefings, then feed them a MRE and keep them until 2200. It's your choice.

    Just my opinion, but to be successful and get promoted, you're going to have to stuff on your own time. This is why I get annoyed with NCOs and Officers who don't want to do anything but show up to drill.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Working for the guard without pay

      Without specifics as to what is being ordered, it's hard to give a straight answer.

      Can a NCO make you show up to the armory between drills and PT? No. Especially if there is no reason for doing so (ie - APFT failure, H/W failure).
      Can a NCO make you attend PT at his gym (Especially if the gym is not free)? Again, No. Conflict of interests and would trigger red flags at IG.

      It's hard to quantify on paper a low score without proof as it also hard to quantify a high score without proof (ie - NCOERs, etc).

      Military Training? Grey area. Depends on what it is, what it entails and the like.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Working for the guard without pay

        Originally posted by RedLeg View Post
        Like signing the head count sheet or participating in RMA, very technically, no you don't have to but there is a consequence. You're probably going to end up doing death by PowerPoint briefs for topics that you can whip out a far shorter time on your own, then out doing the cool stuff you signed up for. Also, if you do it on your own some of it may count for promotion points or you can get retirement points out of it. Or worse, I had a battalion commander put out that if the Soldiers didn't do the briefings, then feed them a MRE and keep them until 2200. It's your choice.

        Just my opinion, but to be successful and get promoted, you're going to have to stuff on your own time. This is why I get annoyed with NCOs and Officers who don't want to do anything but show up to drill.
        I am a recent transfer to the NG and same said NCO has refused to put me in for a range since I transferred. I have been informed by the training NCO that since I am past April 1 I am not eligible for promotion until next year due to this circumstance. I don't have a problem going above and beyond, but this situation also relates to having informed said NCO of an issue and then being left hanging and later being ordered to fix it because "You just didn't ask enough questions and that isn't the Army's fault". While I have previously seen numerous service members do exactly that; (mention some issue and then just hope it gets fixed) however I have followed up with this NCO about this issue (and others mentioned) for months to no avail.

        Originally posted by jmclaughlin1701 View Post
        Without specifics as to what is being ordered, it's hard to give a straight answer.

        Can a NCO make you show up to the armory between drills and PT? No. Especially if there is no reason for doing so (ie - APFT failure, H/W failure).
        Can a NCO make you attend PT at his gym (Especially if the gym is not free)? Again, No. Conflict of interests and would trigger red flags at IG.

        It's hard to quantify on paper a low score without proof as it also hard to quantify a high score without proof (ie - NCOERs, etc).

        Military Training? Grey area. Depends on what it is, what it entails and the like.
        It seems relevant that he isn't ordering most of this. The penalty for not doing as "not ordered" seems to be negative monthly counseling, BS details, refusal to instruct on annual promotion packet (I came from another service that doesn't have this) ,etc. I will say that in this way he is slightly covering his ass and that this would be hard to prove, except that the one person who has/does gone/go to his gym is consistently rated as perfect in all aspects (caught sight of his counseling), is usually excluded from "work", and has his paperwork filled out/endorsed by said NCO.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Working for the guard without pay

          Originally posted by jmclaughlin1701 View Post
          Can a NCO make you attend PT at his gym (Especially if the gym is not free)? Again, No. Conflict of interests and would trigger red flags at IG.
          This one stood out to me. Is it his gym, or the gym he works out at? If he is trying to force you to pay him, that's a MAJOR issue.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Working for the guard without pay

            Originally posted by Lance13A View Post
            This one stood out to me. Is it his gym, or the gym he works out at? If he is trying to force you to pay him, that's a MAJOR issue.
            It is his gym. Relevantly he does not "order" you to go, but your NCOERs will reflect. Also I agree with your assessment of the situation entirely.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Working for the guard without pay

              Well, it's one of those things that you, as a soldier, have to pick your battles....

              So, tell me more about these negative counseling statements? There has to be a valid reason for giving one and "not going to my gym" borders on the line of "retarded". You have the right to dispute that with your chain of command. Same thing as your NCOER. There has to be valid reasons, both good and bad, for what we put on there. Again, you can dispute this.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Working for the guard without pay

                Originally posted by Prior Enlisted View Post
                It is his gym. Relevantly he does not "order" you to go, but your NCOERs will reflect. Also I agree with your assessment of the situation entirely.
                Are you an E5 being told by an E6 or E7 to go to the gym? The title of the thread made me SMH because this is an issue that can be easily solved by your chain of command than griping on a forum.

                You wrote that you come from another branch and I do not think that is the issue here. You need to sit down and verbally express your concerns about the topic in hand. If you have a PT problem and your squad leader suggested that you go to his gym, so he can improve your PT, is not a problem but cannot use that for your NCOER if you decide not to go. And on the other hand, this is not the active army that he can make you PT after drill hours. If you fail PT, you simply do not get promoted.

                Move up the chain of command in your unit; until your query is satisfied.

                I am active duty and on call 24-7 and my pay is basically 4 dollars an hour. I accept that lifestyle and schedule when I signed the dotted line.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Working for the guard without pay

                  Originally posted by Prior Enlisted View Post
                  It is his gym. Relevantly he does not "order" you to go, but your NCOERs will reflect. Also I agree with your assessment of the situation entirely.
                  His gym and you paying for it is wrong.

                  The rest reflecting on your NCOER is not. Hard to give a NCO an Excellence when all they do is show up to drill.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Working for the guard without pay

                    Originally posted by Chief Kemosabe View Post
                    Are you an E5 being told by an E6 or E7 to go to the gym? The title of the thread made me SMH because this is an issue that can be easily solved by your chain of command than griping on a forum.
                    I'm an E4 him E5. The reason I'm here (as well as working other avenues) comes down to lack of familiarity with both the Army and the National Guard not griping. If he is in the right, I'm walking away and shutting up, if he is wrong (and generally the answer I'm getting is that he is) then I am taking it to the chain and trying to get it fixed. The upside to asking here is that if I look like a jackass it doesn't affect me anywhere but here.

                    Originally posted by Chief Kemosabe View Post
                    You wrote that you come from another branch and I do not think that is the issue here. You need to sit down and verbally express your concerns about the topic in hand. If you have a PT problem and your squad leader suggested that you go to his gym, so he can improve your PT, is not a problem but cannot use that for your NCOER if you decide not to go. And on the other hand, this is not the active army that he can make you PT after drill hours. If you fail PT, you simply do not get promoted.
                    The other branch issue begins and ends with him liking to emphasize the point that I wasn't previously Army. While annoying it isn't really a problem. I think I addressed the chain of command issue above. I don't have a PT problem. I don't run 300, but my score is continually improving and is passing. NCOER may be the wrong term (again familiarity issues)

                    Originally posted by Chief Kemosabe View Post
                    Move up the chain of command in your unit; until your query is satisfied.
                    I feel like I should say 7ps here.

                    Originally posted by Chief Kemosabe View Post
                    I am active duty and on call 24-7 and my pay is basically 4 dollars an hour. I accept that lifestyle and schedule when I signed the dotted line.
                    As did I, while I was active duty. I am not any longer and generally speaking I still have no issue going above and beyond, but there is a limit on how much bad leadership I intend to live with if I don't have to.

                    Originally posted by RedLeg View Post
                    His gym and you paying for it is wrong.

                    The rest reflecting on your NCOER is not. Hard to give a NCO an Excellence when all they do is show up to drill.
                    I understand your point. That said I preform more efficiently and am more than willing to (and have done) increase my own skills on my own. There as a previously mentioned range issue that I requested to shoot on personal time if it would get me in to one sooner. Said NCO refused to so much as pass this information up and instead just told me "You aren't shooting a range until AT".

                    I realize that my question predisposes me to the label of shitbag and that I will inevitably be fighting that title the entire way down this thread, but I have bitten my tongue on plenty of issues already that boil down to bad/lazy leadership as they are not direct violations of orders. Any NCO who leads in the fashions I have seen here is playing with fire and just waiting on the day he retires/someone pushes an issue like this. No small part of the reason I am prior service to my previous branch comes down to issues such as this.

                    While I don't expect every NCO to be a super hero I do expect them to do their jobs. Issues with that exact situation spawned this to begin with, by that I mean I got left a message at 2300 saying "It's not the Army's fault that you didn't ask enough questions about how to solve this issue". As I brought this issue to said NCO 3 months ago and have continuously followed up (every drill and in between more than once) I don't understand a mentality that begets that answer. I don't think I want to either.

                    I don't intend this to sound combative, but text removes verbal context so I can see how it could be taken that way.
                    Last edited by Prior Enlisted; April 24th, 2013, 10:52 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Working for the guard without pay

                      I'm an E4 him E5. The reason I'm here (as well as working other avenues) comes down to lack of familiarity with both the Army and the National Guard not griping. If he is in the right, I'm walking away and shutting up, if he is wrong (and generally the answer I'm getting is that he is) then I am taking it to the chain and trying to get it fixed. The upside to asking here is that if I look like a jackass it doesn't affect me anywhere but here.
                      He's wrong about the gym. Good idea, poor execution.

                      Counselings, without seeing how their written, it's hard to really make a judgment. If he gave a clear and reasonable expectations in your initial counseling, then the follow up counselings should be addressing those.

                      The range, a lot of leaders just say no because it's easier then trying to explain. It's a pain on the unit to get you to the range unless you shared the armory with the same unit. Someone has to open the arms room to get/return your weapon, sensitive items check, who's going to drive you since you can't take a POV, dispatching a vehicle, does the other unit even have enough rounds, are they willing to let others shoot with them ect.

                      Additional training. If you don't want to do anything between drills, then don't. At the end of the day, there's really no administrative consequence for it. Both the NG/USAR have change a lot over the past 10 years. Soldiers are asked to do a lot of stuff between drill weekends. Like I posted earlier, if you want to be out doing the cool stuff, you need to do the boring stuff on your own. Also, if you're not wanting to do stuff between weekends, then don't seek out a promotion. Can he make it painful for not doing stuff? Probably as long as he's not abusive with it.

                      I'm not calling you a dirt bag but I see your issues more as you dislike his leadership style vs real mistakes by your NCO. Of course you're right, it is hard to communicate the context via a forum.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Working for the guard without pay

                        Due to the nature of my reply I have sent it as a pm.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Please read up on the "Antideficiency Act", you are being required through coercion to engage as a voluntary creditor. A voluntary creditor is one who uses personal funds to pay what is perceived to be a government obligation. "Personal funds to pay" can be interpreted as services rendered. Violation of this Antideficiency Act can be severe though most of the actions taken against individuals found guilty of this have been brushed aside with mere slaps (admonishments and written memorandums) on the hand because of no knowing or willful violations. Though aprising your leadership of this Act and the continuance of the aforementioned behavior should allow stiffer consequences should actions be taken.

                          That being said... most often if you present this to your chain of command, they may show resentment and indignation towards the so called, whistleblower. It may behoove you to pick your battle, this may not win the war and your career will likely suffer. If this is a systemic issue though, you may have a case that will hold up towards the notification process from JAG which enlightens The President, Congress, the Senate, etc...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TxIntel 1978 View Post
                            Re: Working for the guard without pay

                            Well, it's one of those things that you, as a soldier, have to pick your battles....

                            So, tell me more about these negative counseling statements? There has to be a valid reason for giving one and "not going to my gym" borders on the line of "retarded". You have the right to dispute that with your chain of command. Same thing as your NCOER. There has to be valid reasons, both good and bad, for what we put on there. Again, you can dispute this.
                            ​Well, there was a time when I was given a counseling statement by my chain of command stating that my Security clearance was to be revoked and my educational benefits denied conveniently after I submitted an EO complaint as well as an IG complaint...

                            That counseling statement made its way to a Congressman's office and things didn't end well for that unit. Lose-lose situation. What can you do?

                            Comment

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