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Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

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  • #31
    Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

    I can't remember if 235th is out here right now, I'm with the 819th EN CO and we are partnered (sort of) with the 848th out of Georgia.

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    • #32
      Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

      Originally posted by DocBach View Post
      Polo's example highlights exactly to what I was referring to. Because errors in shooting are angular, what appears to be around a 2" POA/POI deviation at just 25 meters on zero targets is exponentially equates to a several minute error that is magnified down range; being off at 2" at 25 meters equates to being off target 8 minutes, which equates to more than 40" off target at 550 meters, which by the way, is around the average engagement distance of TIC's in Afghanistan right now.

      But, if you don't believe me you can attend an SDM course with the National Guard Marksmanship training unit and tell them the stuff they teach is full of crap -- they teach consistency is accuracy, and zeroing your rifle with a support like a sandbag is a terrible idea as you won't always have the support when you need to shoot your weapon from various positions in combat, meaning zeroing with support but shooting without the same exact support creates inconsistencies. SDM's are currently taught to zero a weapon without barrel support, instead using the magazine of the weapon to stabilize it, and holding the rifle without putting force on the rail by pushing the weapon back into your shoulder pocket from the magazine well to keep force on the barrel even despite changes in shooting position ie kneeling to prone or offhand.

      As Polo and I previously stated, a free-floating rail system or even a monolithic rail system could remove this chance of inconsistency from Army shooters; in fact, the current SOPMOD Block II kit for the M4 includes the RIS II upgrade (NSN 1005-01-547-2624), which is indeed a free-floating system, which corrects the deficiencies in the M4 MWS Knight's Armament M4 RAS.
      Zeroing with a sandbag is definitely a bad idea, but the problem lies in the fact that it's a better idea than zeroing unsupported because the vast majority of the Army simply isn't at the skill level required to zero the weapon unsupported. Personally, I zero the weapon unsupported because I stand a good chance of hitting the 300m target without support from either the kneeling or prone position so there's very little utility to be gained from zeroing prone supported.

      Individual weapons qualification simply isn't reflective of a soldier's ability to excel in combat marksmanship. And unfortunately the way the Army teaches marksmanship is geared towards IWQ. If you were to zero and set up your weapon in theatre the same way you do for IWQ, you probably have no clue what the heck you are doing! For starters, the 25/300 zero is not nearly as useful as a 50/200 zero.

      Anyways, I did end up taking a carbine class and I wrote a review on it a while back: http://www.nationalguard.com/forums/...ine-Skills-1-2

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      • #33
        Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

        Well, that's odd. I wrote out a huge response and the internet ate it, so here I go again.

        The idea is to zero supported, but without barrel support. Instead of using a sandbag (or bipod with the original poster in mind) to support the barrel, shooters use their magazine as a sort of monopod by planting it in the ground. If they can't get low enough to the ground to place the magazine, they can use sandbags to support the magazine The non-firing hand pushes the weapon back with the meaty portion of the palm (avoiding using the fingers or thumb as they can pull torque onto the weapon), with the firing hand held as high up on the weapon as possible, pulling the weapon gently back into the shooter's shoulder pocket. A solid cheek weld locks the shooter further to the weapon, completing the first fundamental of marksmanship: Stable Shooting Position.

        This can also be done from the kneeling position as well, and it would look something like this:



        Instead of the ground, the shooter rests his magazine on his knee. The non-firing arm is relaxed against his thigh, and the firing arm is relaxed, using the knee for support. The shooter uses natural point of aim as much as possible to avoid muscle fatigue. This keeps the zero consistent, with no force put on the barrel, so the same point of aim has the same point of impact between positions.

        As for the 50/200 zero -- it is vastly superior to the 25/300 we use currently, in operations that mirror OIF; in built up, urbanized areas where shots are usually down alleys or across roads or in doorways, the 50/200m zero provides a much flatter trajectory, so the bullet is always close to the POA/POI. The downside is in operations like OEF, where the average engagement distance is 500m+, the round drops like a rock after 200 meters. It also negates the hold-offs developed for optics like the M68 CCO, in which various reference points of aim can be used for longer shots, ie holding the red dot over the target's head for a 400m shot with a 25/300m zero.

        The 25/300m zero has one major deficiency, which is that at the ordnance of its trajectory the M855 is nearly 9" higher than where the shooter is aiming at. This occurs around 150-200m; one way to negate this is to teach soldiers to think center of mass as the target (be it E Silhouette or Taliban) without its head. Center of mass should be the center of the target's torso, around belly button level. Conversely, due to the several minute bullet drop caused by removing sandbags (or the original mentioned bipod) from a barrel supported position, unsupported firing should drop the round into the same place. However, when shooting supported, the rounds will still be too high. The best way to remove soldiers having to memorize different points of aim for different ranges and different shooting positions is to keep consistency, by holding and shooting the weapon the same manner though all of the various positions and ranges.

        I would argue that the best zero for current operations as well as any future, traditional force-on-force wars with a near-peer enemy, or even in urbanized operations like Iraq was (the 100m zero has a near flat trajectory out to 100m) would be the 100m zero; most magnified optics include a bullet drop reticule that is only accurate if zeroed at 100m. The 100m zero also provides a near flat trajectory with very small adjustments with easily referenced hold overs for 400 and 500 meters. Especially in Afghanistan where you have vertical deviations from shooting up or down mountainsides, the 100m zero has much less deviation than either the 25/300m or 50/200m zero.
        Last edited by DocBach; March 18th, 2013, 12:33 AM.

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