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  • #16
    Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

    Originally posted by Austin Blackman View Post
    See, I'm a lot like you, Sarge.



    And I really don't want any lights or lasers. I just really want good grip and stock and maybe upgrade the rails for lighter system with more rail space and if I do get a SDM position, a bi-pod.
    If you are in an infantry company you'll get a light and a laser. If you get cool with your armorer you might be able to get a SOPMOD stock which gives better cheek weld. Replacing the rails is a 20 skill level task and won't happen, and using a bipod with the standard RAS is a bad idea because they aren't free floated and any variation of force on the rails will change your point of impact from your point of aim by pushing the barrel out of alignment with your zero.

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    • #17
      Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

      Originally posted by DocBach View Post
      If you are in an infantry company you'll get a light and a laser. If you get cool with your armorer you might be able to get a SOPMOD stock which gives better cheek weld. Replacing the rails is a 20 skill level task and won't happen, and using a bipod with the standard RAS is a bad idea because they aren't free floated and any variation of force on the rails will change your point of impact from your point of aim by pushing the barrel out of alignment with your zero.
      Okay, here is an example of someone who genuinely has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Let's dissect.

      A "light" and a "laser?" Firstly, you'll get what your supply sergeant wants you to get in accordance with the specifications of the training you're going to be doing. I don't know what a "laser" is; what he probably means is an optical sight. If I was the commander, you wouldn't be taking any modular lights out to the field unless there was a plan for training that actually required them.

      Whatever other crap you think you're going to score from supply is dependent primarily on whether or not they can get it at all. Most units don't just have accessories for M4s lying around (stocks, etc.).

      Now, the most ridiculous thing this person has said is that last bit about the bipod. He is correct that the attachment point for the bipod is not free floated and that putting any kind of load on the upper receiver will tend to deform the barrel slightly. HOWEVER, this is no different from simply resting the thing on a sandbag -- the load is still being born by the upper receiver. Furthermore, if you zero the weapon in a supported stance (you will), then the deformation is already built into your zero. So...it doesn't matter.

      Furthermore, unless you're talking about making head shots at 550m, the deformation is not going to be significant.

      [Removed] -SteveLord
      Last edited by SteveLord; March 13th, 2013, 09:41 PM. Reason: Watch it please....

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      • #18
        Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

        Other than absolutely agreeing with Jwarren, my advice is this. Buy a sling that works for you, or use some 550 cord. I used 500 for awhile and it was fine. Not fancy, but it worked...ha!

        Get comfortable using your weapon as-is. Every now and then I'll grab a gangsta grip from the armory but most often I dont bother with that nonsense. I'll start buying gear (or using fancy gear we may already have) should I find myself down range in a situation where I may actually use it. Until then I'm dropping $100 or so on something I wont even use every drill.

        If I were to spend my money it would be on load bearing equipment, canteens, etc. You're going to find yourself saying "Wow this LBE sucks" or "Wow this ruck is heavy" or similar things more often than you'll say "Wow I wish I had more crap to attach to my rifle".

        Invest in a better wet weather bag, maybe get your tapes sewn on your ACUs so you look sharp, get a set of boots that wont kill your feet, buy things to make field time slightly more convenient. Stuff like that.

        Just my .02

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

          Originally posted by jwarren View Post
          Okay, here is an example of someone who genuinely has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Let's dissect.

          A "light" and a "laser?" Firstly, you'll get what your supply sergeant wants you to get in accordance with the specifications of the training you're going to be doing. I don't know what a "laser" is; what he probably means is an optical sight. If I was the commander, you wouldn't be taking any modular lights out to the field unless there was a plan for training that actually required them.

          Whatever other crap you think you're going to score from supply is dependent primarily on whether or not they can get it at all. Most units don't just have accessories for M4s lying around (stocks, etc.).
          I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I think he might be referring to a PEQ-15 when he says "laser", but even that sounds a little off.
          Last edited by SteveLord; March 13th, 2013, 09:41 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

            I only ever invested in comfort. Socks, boots, LBE, gloves, cold weather gear. Most of these were before the current decent issue of items we have today.

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            • #21
              Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

              Originally posted by Jackal View Post
              I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I think he might be referring to a PEQ-15 when he says "laser", but even that sounds a little off.
              Good point. They may issue you a PEQ-15 but again, this will likely depend on what type of training is being conducted. The most important thing I wanted to point out was that bipod/zero nonsense.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                Originally posted by SteveLord View Post
                I only ever invested in comfort. Socks, boots, LBE, gloves, cold weather gear. Most of these were before the current decent issue of items we have today.
                +1, while I agree the majority of issued gear has improved, some hasn't. Specifically the issued gloves are junk, plus I always get a good pair of boots and socks.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                  So just a couple days after I posted in this thread I got issued a PEQ 15 and a 400 lumen light for my M-4 lol! Its just added weight and more expensive sensitive items I have to account for. Seeing as how my mission is route clearance during the day I really don't see how those items are going to help me but what ever. Even when I clear routes dismounted on the road and far security sweeps off the road looking for trigger men I still don't think I will need that ****. I also have a secondary weapon, Mossberg 500 lol. I'm walking around the FOB looking like ******* rambo with my tricked out M4 and shotgun slung on my back. So Gheeey.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                    Originally posted by jwarren View Post
                    Okay, here is an example of someone who genuinely has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Let's dissect.

                    A "light" and a "laser?" Firstly, you'll get what your supply sergeant wants you to get in accordance with the specifications of the training you're going to be doing. I don't know what a "laser" is; what he probably means is an optical sight. If I was the commander, you wouldn't be taking any modular lights out to the field unless there was a plan for training that actually required them.

                    Whatever other crap you think you're going to score from supply is dependent primarily on whether or not they can get it at all. Most units don't just have accessories for M4s lying around (stocks, etc.).

                    Now, the most ridiculous thing this person has said is that last bit about the bipod. He is correct that the attachment point for the bipod is not free floated and that putting any kind of load on the upper receiver will tend to deform the barrel slightly. HOWEVER, this is no different from simply resting the thing on a sandbag -- the load is still being born by the upper receiver. Furthermore, if you zero the weapon in a supported stance (you will), then the deformation is already built into your zero. So...it doesn't matter.

                    Furthermore, unless you're talking about making head shots at 550m, the deformation is not going to be significant.
                    True. But, I wish we had free-floated rails. And this is why... (well, both you and show_stopper know I can shoot)

                    Prone supported by sandbag using CCO:



                    Prone unsupported (no part of M4 touching anything other than body) using CCO:



                    Disregard the flier hole in the bottom right box. Some idiot couldn't maintain his own lane. Notice the point of aim and the point of impact. That's a HUGE difference - something that can be completely corrected by free-floated rails. Heck, I wish we ran monolithic uppers. Granted the VAST majority of soldiers are not shooting at a level at which this would matter.

                    Here's another example. The grouping on the silhouette was prone supported. The other 5 shot groupings were from a kneeling position.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                      Originally posted by DocBach View Post
                      Replacing the rails is a 20 skill level task and won't happen
                      Meh. I've gone far beyond the 10 level on the weapons assigned to me in the past. On my last deployment myself and another soldier took our 249's all the way down to manufacturer level, we were taking things apart that were listed in the TM as not being able to come apart. In my squad we break our M2 down past 10 level all the time to clean it properly.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                        I'll tell you one thing. Working in a Division HQ, my weapons are NEVER clean.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                          Originally posted by show_stopper999 View Post
                          Other than absolutely agreeing with Jwarren, my advice is this. Buy a sling that works for you, or use some 550 cord. I used 500 for awhile and it was fine. Not fancy, but it worked...ha!

                          Get comfortable using your weapon as-is. Every now and then I'll grab a gangsta grip from the armory but most often I dont bother with that nonsense. I'll start buying gear (or using fancy gear we may already have) should I find myself down range in a situation where I may actually use it. Until then I'm dropping $100 or so on something I wont even use every drill.

                          If I were to spend my money it would be on load bearing equipment, canteens, etc. You're going to find yourself saying "Wow this LBE sucks" or "Wow this ruck is heavy" or similar things more often than you'll say "Wow I wish I had more crap to attach to my rifle".

                          Invest in a better wet weather bag, maybe get your tapes sewn on your ACUs so you look sharp, get a set of boots that wont kill your feet, buy things to make field time slightly more convenient. Stuff like that.

                          Just my .02
                          Yeah...this.

                          The best thing you can do is to just put all your gear on, go out to some hiking trails, and walk around for a few hours under a load. Experiment with different gear configurations and see what works best for you. Learn to pack a ruck (heavy stuff toward the front and up high). You can have all the best / most expensive third party gear but if you haven't familiarized yourself with it, it's going to suck when you have to ruck up and do a ten-mile movement. Trust me.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                            Originally posted by jwarren View Post
                            Okay, here is an example of someone who genuinely has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Let's dissect.

                            A "light" and a "laser?" Firstly, you'll get what your supply sergeant wants you to get in accordance with the specifications of the training you're going to be doing. I don't know what a "laser" is; what he probably means is an optical sight. If I was the commander, you wouldn't be taking any modular lights out to the field unless there was a plan for training that actually required them.

                            Whatever other crap you think you're going to score from supply is dependent primarily on whether or not they can get it at all. Most units don't just have accessories for M4s lying around (stocks, etc.).

                            Now, the most ridiculous thing this person has said is that last bit about the bipod. He is correct that the attachment point for the bipod is not free floated and that putting any kind of load on the upper receiver will tend to deform the barrel slightly. HOWEVER, this is no different from simply resting the thing on a sandbag -- the load is still being born by the upper receiver. Furthermore, if you zero the weapon in a supported stance (you will), then the deformation is already built into your zero. So...it doesn't matter.

                            Furthermore, unless you're talking about making head shots at 550m, the deformation is not going to be significant.

                            [Removed] -SteveLord
                            A light being a M952 Surefire, laser being an AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PAQ-4C or AN/PEQ-2A, or whatever IR illuminator his unit has to issue out. In my unit, we keep our mission essential equipment tied down to our weapon at all times including turn in, to include individual optic (AN/PVQ-31B ACOG or M68 CCO), AN/PEQ-15, and M952 on our weapons at all time. Again, because the M4 RAS is a non-floating system, zeroing a weapon with an accessory attached to the forearm and removing it or vice versa will have an impact on your zero, so we leave all of our weapon accessories on the weapon at all times.

                            Polo's example highlights exactly to what I was referring to. Because errors in shooting are angular, what appears to be around a 2" POA/POI deviation at just 25 meters on zero targets is exponentially equates to a several minute error that is magnified down range; being off at 2" at 25 meters equates to being off target 8 minutes, which equates to more than 40" off target at 550 meters, which by the way, is around the average engagement distance of TIC's in Afghanistan right now.

                            But, if you don't believe me you can attend an SDM course with the National Guard Marksmanship training unit and tell them the stuff they teach is full of crap -- they teach consistency is accuracy, and zeroing your rifle with a support like a sandbag is a terrible idea as you won't always have the support when you need to shoot your weapon from various positions in combat, meaning zeroing with support but shooting without the same exact support creates inconsistencies. SDM's are currently taught to zero a weapon without barrel support, instead using the magazine of the weapon to stabilize it, and holding the rifle without putting force on the rail by pushing the weapon back into your shoulder pocket from the magazine well to keep force on the barrel even despite changes in shooting position ie kneeling to prone or offhand.

                            As Polo and I previously stated, a free-floating rail system or even a monolithic rail system could remove this chance of inconsistency from Army shooters; in fact, the current SOPMOD Block II kit for the M4 includes the RIS II upgrade (NSN 1005-01-547-2624), which is indeed a free-floating system, which corrects the deficiencies in the M4 MWS Knight's Armament M4 RAS.

                            Sir, I hope you don't publicly berate the experience of your NCO's in your company like you do online, the training I brought back from the SDM course that I taught to my platoon increased our Expert qualifications in the platoon to more than the rest of the entire company had combined.

                            Explosive Hazard, noticed you were getting ready to do route clearance with a Sapper company. Per chance the 235th EN CO?
                            Last edited by DocBach; March 16th, 2013, 12:53 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                              Originally posted by DocBach View Post

                              Explosive Hazard, noticed you were getting ready to do route clearance with a Sapper company. Per chance the 235th EN CO?
                              Even though I didn't keep everything in your post, +1 to all of it. I have 3 SDM's in my squad that have shared a ton of great knowledge that gained at that course. The stuff they told me and the drills they showed us greatly improved all our rifle scores.

                              I'm not with 235th EN CO. I'm at FT Bliss right now and we are a few days away from heading over the pond.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Being able to customizing your rifle? Rules about customizing your rifle?

                                Originally posted by Explosive Hazard View Post
                                Even though I didn't keep everything in your post, +1 to all of it. I have 3 SDM's in my squad that have shared a ton of great knowledge that gained at that course. The stuff they told me and the drills they showed us greatly improved all our rifle scores.

                                I'm not with 235th EN CO. I'm at FT Bliss right now and we are a few days away from heading over the pond.
                                Got some buddies who volunteered to go with the 235th, they're heading out soon as well, thought by coincidence maybe you were with them.

                                Good luck to you guys, come home safe.

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