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Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

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  • #16
    Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

    Each branch is different towards career progression. For example in the Air Force, most individuals that make general are pilots. USMC its aviators and infantry. Even if you look at Generals in the Army such as General Franks, Petreaus, and McChrystal you can see that they were all in a combat MOS. That doesnt mean that you have to do a combat MOS to make general or a high rank just more potential.

    Some MOS have a height ceiling of LtCol or Maj. just depends.

    Reserve Components are different as well as it is based on slot availability.

    I agree with all of you as well. A fellow soldier gave me the burning tank scenario. Could a 120 pound women lift up a 200 pound guy?
    Last edited by MichaelPC; May 23rd, 2011, 11:47 AM.

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    • #17
      Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

      Originally posted by MichaelPC View Post
      Each branch is different towards career progression. For example in the Air Force, most individuals that make general are pilots. USMC its aviators and infantry. Even if you look at Generals in the Army such as General Franks, Petreaus, and McChrystal you can see that they were all in a combat MOS. That doesnt mean that you have to do a combat MOS to make general or a high rank just more potential.

      Some MOS have a height ceiling of LtCol or Maj. just depends.

      Reserve Components are different as well as it is based on slot availability.

      I agree with all of you as well. A fellow soldier gave me the burning tank scenario. Could a 120 pound women lift up a 200 pound guy?
      The Service knows this is coming and in my opinion has already been getting ready for this perfect example is the new PT test. It is GENDER NEUTRAL I mean that alone should be an indication that a BIG change is coming. Like I wrote before I recommend that you write to your elected represenatives NOW and get others to do that because at the very least you can say you tried to do something about it should this really happen.
      Last edited by o13starsnstripes; May 23rd, 2011, 12:29 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

        Originally posted by MichaelPC View Post
        Could a 120 pound women lift up a 200 pound guy?
        I completely agree with you....my boyfriend is 6'2'' and 200+ (at least) and also happens to be a tanker, and I am 5'5'' and 135 lbs; even when we are just messing around seeing if I can 'fireman carry' him, he's just too tall and its like he's just leaning over me.....basically there's not enough of me to lift him regardless of how much I can bench-press in the gym.

        If I had to extract him from a burning tank...there's no way.

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        • #19
          Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

          It almost has nothing to do with the physical limitations of women, moreso the emotional and mental limitations of men. Also, what they are calling "active ground combat" - isn't. I posted this last time the topic came up:

          Contrary to popular belief for the most part the problem with women in direct combat has nothing to do with the women. It's the men that are the problem. You see people cannot change how the feel, or how they react. It's human nature. A man, no matter who you are, is programmed to protect a female. It's human insticnt when in a dangerous situation for a male to protect his female counter. This type of behavior is not conducive to combat operations. SSG Joe Snuffy who is an infantry squad leader may be on a mission deep in a hot zone, and when sh1t hits the fan, that one female on his team who is injured will become his priority. The mission will instantly become second in nature, and this just cannot happen.

          Disclaimer: The next paragraph in no way shape or form is intended to downgrade or minimize anyones combat experience. I am merely pointing out differences in operations. I understand there is still danger, and I again am not taking anything away from any of you who have served in OIF OEF....

          BUT, the people who say women are in combat anyway are highly mistaken. Yes, it is still dangerous in Iraq and Afghnaistan. But the statement President Bush made back in early 2003 that everyone mocks when he stated major combat operations are over, was TRUE. It was true in the nature to offensive combat operations. OEF and OIF are unlike any other combat enviroment we have seen. It is no longer a linear battlefield with the good guys on one side and the bad guys on other side. We are both everywhere. The stipulations that prevent women in direct combat were not designed in lieu of this modern war. It was designed based of the concepts of a linear battlefield and offensive movements. The real war, in terms of active combat ended once we started building bases in Iraq.

          In March of 2002 I was on a major combat operations (Operation Anaconda) in which we were in the middle of the mountains in the middle of no where on an offensive movement (a linear battlefield). There were no women with us. This is an example of what direct combat is.

          When these rules were made no one thought about IED's and how everyone would eventually be in equal danger regardless of MOS.

          To change the current doctrine allowing women to serve in direct combat units (units that do offensive actions) would be a grave mistake should we have to invade another country on an offensive operation

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          • #20
            Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

            Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
            Contrary to popular belief for the most part the problem with women in direct combat has nothing to do with the women. It's the men that are the problem. You see people cannot change how the feel, or how they react. It's human nature. A man, no matter who you are, is programmed to protect a female. It's human insticnt when in a dangerous situation for a male to protect his female counter. This type of behavior is not conducive to combat operations. SSG Joe Snuffy who is an infantry squad leader may be on a mission deep in a hot zone, and when sh1t hits the fan, that one female on his team who is injured will become his priority. The mission will instantly become second in nature, and this just cannot happen.
            Excellent point....I believe this could be a serious issue as well, but wasn't quite sure how to put it into words.

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            • #21
              Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

              If Venus Williams is in my squad...you have a deal. She can even be my RTO.

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              • #22
                Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                Originally posted by SteveLord View Post
                If Venus Williams is in my squad...you have a deal. She can even be my RTO.
                Or how about one of these two? Lol

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                • #23
                  Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                  Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
                  A man, no matter who you are, is programmed to protect a female. It's human insticnt when in a dangerous situation for a male to protect his female counter. This type of behavior is not conducive to combat operations. SSG Joe Snuffy who is an infantry squad leader may be on a mission deep in a hot zone, and when sh1t hits the fan, that one female on his team who is injured will become his priority. The mission will instantly become second in nature, and this just cannot happen.

                  I'm not supporting women in combat, but I dont buy this argument. When the **** hit the fan in Iraq, the guys in my unit did not treat the women any differently. Everybody reacted just how they had been trained and the mission was completed. My biggest argument against it has always been how there has been a double standard for PT, but now it looks like that is going away. I'm going to have to see how that works out after the new standards are implemented before I can comment about that.

                  On top of the physical abilities, I always saw more of an issue that women couldn't be out in the field for weeks at a time because they have different hygiene issues.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                    As long as females are made to register for the Selective Service, and eligible to be drafted, and drafted at the same rate as their male counterparts???

                    If one barrier comes down they all should, Huh?

                    We have to think three paces forward folks.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                      Originally posted by RSP NCO View Post
                      I'm not supporting women in combat, but I dont buy this argument. When the **** hit the fan in Iraq, the guys in my unit did not treat the women any differently. Everybody reacted just how they had been trained and the mission was completed. My biggest argument against it has always been how there has been a double standard for PT, but now it looks like that is going away. I'm going to have to see how that works out after the new standards are implemented before I can comment about that.

                      On top of the physical abilities, I always saw more of an issue that women couldn't be out in the field for weeks at a time because they have different hygiene issues.
                      I don't doubt that your people took care of business. But men act differently around women, period. Men act even more different if they have feelings for one of the women, and they act absoutly ridiculous if they are in a relationship of any kind with one (whether legal or not) and something happens to the girl they don't like.

                      There is a similiar argument wrapped into the don't ask don't tell, you think they wanted that policy for the **** of it? No. ***, love and all that gushy stuff has no place when there are bullets flying.

                      You don't see all the deployment hook ups and cheating BS that happens on the FOBS, there is no place for that outside the wire.

                      You think a guy and girl dug into a foxhole working a rotating night shift for months don't have a high probabilty of fooling around on the job? Fooling around inside the finance office doesn't get people killed. Wanting to hop in the sack with the girl you are on watch with can **** people.

                      You're people may have gotten the job done, I wasn't with your unit, and in no way can will talk about their experiences, but those females obviously were not in a combat arms unit because it still isn't allowed.

                      There is a huge difference between a female in an infantry unit 24/7, and one tagging along in a supply convoy, or in an MP unit, or whatever, which is exactly my point. Your argument is the same as the politicians argument, which is moot. ITS NOT ACTIVE GROUND COMBAT. ITS NOT! Its the same reason they ideveloped the Combat Action Badge...You have infantry soldiers going on offensive ops, coming back with a CIB, then you have support people going out on a convoy and they get hit, and the Army says "well we have to give them something, its combat"...No, its really not, its just a very very different war.

                      On my last deployment when I was the Mil Justice NCOIC and a Mortar landed some yards away from our compound everyone is screaming for a combat action badge, and this type of incident is their argument for changing the law. Because there were women on the FOB too. Its just such an uneducated decision.
                      Last edited by ParalegalNCO1; May 24th, 2011, 05:27 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                        Originally posted by Chaplain4me View Post
                        As long as females are made to register for the Selective Service, and eligible to be drafted, and drafted at the same rate as their male counterparts???

                        If one barrier comes down they all should, Huh?

                        We have to think three paces forward folks.
                        Women are not made to register for selective service, aren't eligible to be drafted, and therefore can NOT be drafted!!!

                        But you were against DADT being repealed yet support this? So you were all for a barrier to begin with were you not?

                        Chaplain4me I remind you in front of the court you are under oath to answer honestly.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                          ..........

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                          • #28
                            Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                            Originally posted by Chaplain4me View Post
                            As long as females are made to register for the Selective Service, and eligible to be drafted, and drafted at the same rate as their male counterparts???

                            If one barrier comes down they all should, Huh?

                            We have to think three paces forward folks.
                            I wish you would just stop. This isn't an equality contest. You're talking about lives and combat effectivness. Next there will be a law requiring a female president every other term. Or complaints that force the WNBA and the NBA to combine because there is a girl out there who says she should get paid more because she can guard Kobe Bryant. Peyton manning is going to have to sit every 3rd down to allow a female QB her turn. And, I'm going to get my waiter job at hooter$.

                            I know, lets just force 50% of the O-10s to retire and then frock a entire new group of female O-10's regardless of qualifications just so that we can be fair.

                            Maybe, if we get our but kicked in the next conflict we can go down in the history books as being the most fair and get the most fair campaign streamer.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                              Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
                              next conflict we can go down in the history books as being the most fair and get the most fair campaign streamer.
                              The next one might be sooner then you can think and if we find ourselves in a fair fight then our tactics just ****.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Bill would lift combat restrictions for women

                                I've had this debate a thousand times...and ParalegalNCO has laid out the main talking points beautifully. I find it hard for anyone to really argue against them all.

                                (PS-Let's try to keep DADT out of this. I believe the two subjects aren't as related as some might think.)

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