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  • Up or out

    Can someone explain how up or out works?

    How long between boards do you have?

    a career could be cut short by failing to promote. any personal experiences?

  • #2
    Re: Up or out

    i dont really have any info on this, but it sounds like what happened to my grandpa. his career was cut short because their were no brigadier general slots, from what my parents tell me. so i assume this is what happened. But he also has a retired military ID so.. who knows.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Up or out

      LTC Ritchie is the SME on the process.

      1LT 2 years TIG MIN 2 years TIG max
      CPT 2 years TIG MIN 5 years TIG max
      MAJ 4 years TIG MIN 7 years TIG max
      LTC 4 years TIG MIN 7 years TIG max

      Officers I've seen usually struggle at Major and above, especially in the NG when many of the senior slots are tied to mil tech positions.

      Keep in mind this may not apply to you since you're a chaplain. Get a hold of a current NG/Reserve Almanac. It can answer a lot of your questions.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Up or out

        Active duty chaplaincy, from CPT to MAJ can be an ender.

        Depends on the state some states don't need chaplains, others do.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Up or out

          Originally posted by Chaplain4me
          Active duty chaplaincy, from CPT to MAJ can be an ender.

          Depends on the state some states don't need chaplains, others do.
          What about nursing, I assumed there would be a demand for nurses but once you get to the higher ranks your no longer on the floor.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Up or out

            This thread needs a bump as there were too many unanswered ?'s for my liking. There are several junior officers that seem to be in the same boat as lil ol me. Maybe some of the "seasoned" officers could shed some light or point us in the right direction ( ahem....LtCol Ritchie, Maj Day....)

            So let me pose a few scenarios/hypotheticals and maybe clarity will ensue.

            - I know that most branches can re-class in order to avoid "up or out". What about DC'd personnel? So if I'm DC'd with AMEDD and am told that I am being brought in for a specific skill- to act as an expert and not serve in a troop leadership position- does this still apply? Obviously, a PM expert can't re-class as an entymologist, social worker, etc. How about as a 70 series? This would apply to the Chaplain as well as he eluded to in the above post.

            - I DC as O1- O2 all promoted on time but capped at O-3. If no O-4 slots exist for the track can you do a full 20 yrs at O-3? Are your forced out at 20 if so?


            I might come back and edit more into this but have to run for now.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Up or out

              1. Officers with a special branch commission are stuck in that field. For them to switch branches, they must be otherwise qualified. We had a medical DC lieutenant who wanted to be a pilot. She would have had to have resigned, enlisted for OCS, and then completed all that in order to fly. Basic branch officers who get degrees and then become JAG or chaplain or medical have it easier, but they still must be discharged in their current status and reappointed the next day in their new status.
              2. If your State has little force structure in one branch, officers may reclassify to other branches or functional areas. Every State has a number of branch immaterial positions as well.

              Every officer has a mandatory removal date. This is a function of age, rank, and years of commissioned service. If you have a few years of enlisted time, you may be able to hang on long enough to gain 20 years and retire as a captain. If you came straight from ROTC or OCS, you really need to make major to hope to obtain 20 years of service.

              In addition, States may run a retention board, which is designed to weed out those with 20+ years who are just hanging around drawing paychecks and not contributing that much.

              So your takeaways are:
              - Do excellent work, live the Army values, achieve great things.
              - Maintain civilian and military education.
              - As a senior captain, obtain a second branch or functional area.
              - Review your retirement points statement yearly.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Up or out

                Originally posted by matthew.ritchie
                1. Officers with a special branch commission are stuck in that field.
                Good stuff, sir. Who decides the promotional ceilings for each branch/specialty? A physician can make O-6, Chaplain O-4, JAG O-?, etc.

                Originally posted by matthew.ritchie
                If you have a few years of enlisted time, you may be able to hang on long enough to gain 20 years and retire as a captain.
                I do but what of those who are in a specialty which caps at O-3 and have no prior service time? If that position doesn't allow for O-4 is it just assumed that it is '20 and out'? I am sure it is subject to change but when one accepts a commission are they told what the promotional caps are on the position they are filling or what other areas they would have to qualify in to re-class for promotion?


                Originally posted by matthew.ritchie
                In addition, States may run a retention board, which is designed to weed out those with 20+ years who are just hanging around drawing paychecks and not contributing that much.
                If only my civilian career had this...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Up or out

                  Each State has a manning document that list all positions available in that State. You can't have what doesn't exist.

                  The force structure changes periodically, so I can't really tell my new lieutenants today that they will or will not have an O5 slot in their career field 20 years from now.

                  Don't over-think this. Any officer of any branch can make a 20 year career if he applies the takeaways I mentioned in my previous message. The officers who don't make 20 good years tend to face problems that are largely their own fault: failure to keep up with civilian and military education, marginal performance, lack of imagination, unwillingness to drive, unwillingness to reclassify.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Up or out

                    LTC, what about the idea of changing to warrant? Example a soldier with 20+, including 5 enlisted, with no chance of moving up, could he take some courses and go to warrant, then possibly come back to a different branch as a major later on, and then resume upward mobility?

                    Or once he changed to warrant would he have a chance to move up all the way to W4 or W5?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Up or out

                      Originally posted by 49thadband
                      LTC, what about the idea of changing to warrant? Example a soldier with 20+, including 5 enlisted, with no chance of moving up, could he take some courses and go to warrant, then possibly come back to a different branch as a major later on, and then resume upward mobility?

                      Or once he changed to warrant would he have a chance to move up all the way to W4 or W5?
                      If otherwise qualified, a commissioned officer may switch to WO. Individuals must get predetermined by the WO career field proponent before pursuing appointment as a WO. Several times as Virginia's OSM I turned commissioned officers into warrants. Previous commissioned officer service presents no legal or regulatory restriction from attaining CW4/CW5 rank.

                      Reappointment of former commissioned officer currently serving as a WO as a commissioned officer is certainly possible, but uncommon (I've seen it done once). This is not completely your choice, your chain of command must support all these actions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Up or out

                        Originally posted by matthew.ritchie
                        Reappointment of former commissioned officer currently serving as a WO as a commissioned officer is certainly possible, but uncommon (I've seen it done once). This is not completely your choice, your chain of command must support all these actions.
                        Which is often a function of a shortage that can't otherwise be filled.

                        Simple logic... If you are reverting from CPT or MAJ because you can't promote because there are too many others out there and not enough slots, then after serving a few years as a WO, what's the probability that one of those slots will suddenly be vacant with NO ONE else eligible to fill it?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Up or out

                          Originally posted by Trooper TJ
                          -So if I'm DC'd with AMEDD and am told that I am being brought in for a specific skill- to act as an expert and not serve in a troop leadership position- does this still apply?
                          Where are you slotted at?

                          Originally posted by Trooper TJ
                          - How about as a 70 series? This would apply to the Chaplain as well as he eluded to in the above post.
                          As a 72D, you are stuck in perpetuity, unless you go through the whole process all over again, not to mention, you went to the short course and would have to go to the long course.

                          How was OBLC anyway?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Up or out

                            Just can't seem to get a straight answer from the brain trust in HQ here - You can make O-5, no problem....no, you're capped at O-3....you might make O-4 but you need to re-class but your not allowed to in your field...

                            No OBLC scheduled yet. Now officially at 2.5 years for this "process". That should be some kind of record. Maybe a ribbon is in order.... At least I'll be in a new PFT age group soon...silver lining

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Up or out

                              Originally posted by Trooper TJ
                              Just can't seem to get a straight answer from the brain trust in HQ here - You can make O-5, no problem....no, you're capped at O-3....you might make O-4 but you need to re-class but your not allowed to in your field...

                              No OBLC scheduled yet. Now officially at 2.5 years for this "process". That should be some kind of record. Maybe a ribbon is in order.... At least I'll be in a new PFT age group soon...silver lining
                              the new PT age group is a nice bonus...lol

                              Comment

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