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flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

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  • #31
    Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

    LOL geeee, why can't the pothead get demoted. I dont knowwwww

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    • #32
      Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

      Just like with promotions, there is a process (that isn't always followed) when it comes to reductions. When was the last time your 1SG walked into a room and said "hey you, you're promoted to the next grade" without any promotion point worksheets, boards, OML list or any process at all. Demotion is supposed to work the same exact way to an extent, but for some reason Commands think that they can demote whomever they wish, whenver they want. Its quite frankly just not the case, however since guard units are so close knit, a phone call to the E-4 pushing buttons in the J-1 is all you need to get cut a reduction order. That doesn't mean that there is any authority to do so.

      There are three ways to reduce a solider. Courts Martial, Article 15 (or similiar state code type of Non Judicial **********) and Administrative Reductions. When it comes to failing drug tests almost always a Admin Reduction is done quoting some authority in AR 600-8-19. There are generally four categories or Authority Lines that can be used. Those are Misconduct para 10-3, Inefficiency para 10-5, Unsatisfactory Particiapation (not coming to drill) para 10-17, and failure to complete NCOES para 10-19. There is also a voluntary reduction but that is obviously irrelevant to this topic.

      Now...why is there no authority to demote your dope smoker??!! Well.....

      A reduction for Misconduct MUST BE FROM A CONVICTION BY A CIVILIAN COURT and ONLY for that reason.

      A reduction for ineffiency CANNOT BE FOR A SINGLE ACT OF MISCONDUCT....you are not inefficient without a pattern of mistakes.

      And obviously if you are coming to drill and didn't fail NCOES the other two chapters don't apply.

      Unless you have a unique state law National Guardsman generally are not covered under the UCMJ, but if your state allows it, Article 15 is still inappropriate because you cannot prove they smoked dope while in a paid status. You have to remember these guy are civilians 28 days out of the year.

      And I can't remember the last time the National Guard court martialed anyone in a title 32 status....

      Any questions?????

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      • #33
        Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

        Originally posted by SGT Juggernaut View Post
        AR 600-8-19 Chapter 10-8. A reduction board can recommend reduction of one or more grades.

        Boards cannot reduce an NCO (E-5 and above) more than one grade. The only way to do that is by Courts Martial.

        b. A reduction board is required for Soldiers in the grade of CPL/SPC (when being reduced more than one grade)
        and for Soldiers in the grade of SGT through SGM for any reduction for misconduct (civil conviction) under paragraph
        10–3 (except under table 10–2) and for inefficiency under paragraph 10–5. Board appearance, however, may be
        declined in writing, which will be considered as acceptance of the reduction board’s action. Individuals in grade of
        CPL and below may be reduced without action by a board.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

          It happens. All over the Guard, but if fought correctly it wouldn't happen. If you read my above post you will see that there isn't any regulatory authority for this type of reduction in the National Guard. In my state they would frequently cut reduction orders and the authority line would usually read something VERY detailed i.e. Authority: AR 600-8-19 para 10-3 (a) But whenever I pulled up a reduction order for a dope smoker it would simply say Authority: AR 600-8-19 ......and nothing else. Because there is nothing to quote. There is no authority that fits the offense.

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          • #35
            Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

            Originally posted by SGT Juggernaut View Post
            +2. In most cases you will be booted out of the military. Some times the commander, and by commander I mean the first 0-6 in your chain of command, may decide to retain you upon condition that you are actively in a drug rehabilitation program. For E1-4 it is pretty typical that they all get the boot. E-5 and above there is a chance they can be retained but in almost all cases they get knocked down to at least a E-3 if not all the way down to E-1 IF they are in fact retained. This is the way it works in my state and they are pretty strict with little variance throughout.

            OP you should consider yourself very lucky they have not tried to recoup the first half of your bonus! Or your state may be really slow like mine, in which case they may be in the process of recouping that 10k.
            Really? Because the guidance I heard was that E1-4 get reduced, E-5 and above get separated. But that's what they "want" to do...
            Last edited by Polo08816; February 25th, 2011, 09:06 PM.

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            • #36
              Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

              How it happens, I do not know, but it happens. I've seen it twice in a year. The last one left me speechless.

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              • #37
                Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                Originally posted by Polo08816 View Post
                Really? Because the guidance I heard was that E1-4 get reduced, E-5 and above get separated. But that's what they "want" to do...
                You are required by Army Regulation to initiate separation proceedings. That doesn't mean they get separated. Each state handles the outcome different. In my state E-4 and below get to rehab and try again after first failure. E-5 and above get booted, unless there is a mitigating circumstance.

                All that aside there still is no authority to reduce. They just do it anyways...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                  So in a nuttshell....if you commit an egregious offense that is against UCMJ or AR even though your a "part-timer" your gonna get reduced and separated??? So we learned there is no authority to reduce.... they just do it anyways. Well that tells me that commanders have authority to reduce and sheiot can troopers that are not in stanadard and violate a zero tolerance policy. Thank you for the clarification.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                    Originally posted by 7011USMC View Post
                    So in a nuttshell....if you commit an egregious offense that is against UCMJ or AR even though your a "part-timer" your gonna get reduced and separated??? So we learned there is no authority to reduce.... they just do it anyways. Well that tells me that commanders have authority to reduce and sheiot can troopers that are not in stanadard and violate a zero tolerance policy. Thank you for the clarification.
                    Pretty much, and in turn violate the same set of rules the dope smoker has. I don't condone the actions, but if we as leaders are going to do something, lets do it properly. And properly is not reducing with no authority. Just because the E-4 in the J-1 printed the order with the TAG's rubber stamp, doesn't mean its valid.

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                    • #40
                      Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                      Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
                      Pretty much, and in turn violate the same set of rules the dope smoker has. I don't condone the actions, but if we as leaders are going to do something, lets do it properly. And properly is not reducing with no authority. Just because the E-4 in the J-1 printed the order with the TAG's rubber stamp, doesn't mean its valid.
                      The Guard dont have a substance abuse program for first time offenders?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                        ParalegalNCO1, I'm curious about the requirement for authority, from a conceptual perspective. Does there need to exist a regulation specifically permitting an action by a commander in order for it to be proper? Or does the simple non-existence of a regulation disallowing an action make it proper? Put another way, there may not be a rule saying a commander can reduce someone in such a situation, but is there a rule saying that the commander can't reduce such an individual?

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                        • #42
                          Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                          Originally posted by fmcityslicker View Post
                          The Guard dont have a substance abuse program for first time offenders?
                          I cant speak for all territories but my state allows the soldier to seek rehabilitation from outside sources amd provide the unit documentation.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                            Originally posted by 0844 View Post
                            ParalegalNCO1, I'm curious about the requirement for authority, from a conceptual perspective. Does there need to exist a regulation specifically permitting an action by a commander in order for it to be proper? Or does the simple non-existence of a regulation disallowing an action make it proper? Put another way, there may not be a rule saying a commander can reduce someone in such a situation, but is there a rule saying that the commander can't reduce such an individual?
                            Youre over thinking it. Is there a specific rule that says a commander cannot promote an E-1 to E-9 skipping all ranks on a rainy day at Fort Campbell when the temperature is below 80 degrees??? No there isnt, but we all know it cant be done. There are regulatory requirments that must be met such as time in service, ncoes and others. Reduction is the same way. AR 600-8-19 Chapter 10 isnt going to specifically cover every incident undet the sun. The situation must meet the regulatory stipulations. And failing one drug test simply doesnt.

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                            • #44
                              Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                              Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
                              Seeing how the TAG is the separation authority for all issues in the National Guard, I love it when a subordinate command makes zero tolerance policies as this. Your commander has absolutely zero, zilch, nada, nothing in regards towards authority to separate a soldier. However, its the Guard, and J1's do what they want. Someone wasted a lot of paper when they printed AR 135-178.
                              Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
                              You are required by Army Regulation to initiate separation proceedings. That doesn't mean they get separated. Each state handles the outcome different. In my state E-4 and below get to rehab and try again after first failure. E-5 and above get booted, unless there is a mitigating circumstance.
                              Aren’t you contradicting yourself here?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: flagged for drug test, will i receive the other half of my enlistment bonus?

                                Originally Posted by ParalegalNCO1
                                Seeing how the TAG is the separation authority for all issues in the National Guard, I love it when a subordinate command makes zero tolerance policies as this. Your commander has absolutely zero, zilch, nada, nothing in regards towards authority to separate a soldier. However, its the Guard, and J1's do what they want. Someone wasted a lot of paper when they printed AR 135-178.

                                Originally Posted by ParalegalNCO1
                                You are required by Army Regulation to initiate separation proceedings. That doesn't mean they get separated. Each state handles the outcome different. In my state E-4 and below get to rehab and try again after first failure. E-5 and above get booted, unless there is a mitigating circumstance.



                                I'm confused. Are both statements in reference to separating first time drug offenders?

                                Is it the case that E4 and below first time drug offenders get demoted and rehab or just get rehab and keep their paygrade or do they get separated as-is?
                                Last edited by VICEROY06; February 28th, 2011, 10:57 AM.

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