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  • #46
    Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

    Originally posted by Chris36 View Post
    OK, take this for what it is.... My NCOIC just called me at home (prompted from my VM) to assure me that was not the case. He said he had highlighted the heading "6-35 Separation/Discharge from State ARNG and/or Reserve of the Army" and ONLY highlighted the bottom line because that is "where the RE3 descriptions started" and that he "shouldn't have" because they are absolutely not discharging me for fraudulent enlistment. He said my discharge packet is being submitted simply as a "Medical Discharge".

    He also pointed out that he doesn't need to assure me if it wasn't true because if he was pursuing a negative discharge, he would "flat out tell me so".

    So I do not know if its true or not, but I appreciated the immediate call back as he will be out of the office until next Friday.

    I will still try and contact JAG again.
    No one ever said anything and discharge for fraudulent enlistment. That is a completely different discharge used under a different section of the regulation. Mainly that is used for people that lie their way in.....we all agree that is not you.

    There is no such thing as a "Medical Discharge" in the context he is using. There must be a specific citation from the regulation for the exact narrative reason for separation....that narrative cannot stop at 6-35...there must be a subparagraph that correlates. 6-35 summarizes every single way you can be separated, one of those "ways" they are applying to you. And, the "way" they are using...is failure to meet procurement enlistment standards.
    Last edited by ParalegalNCO1; October 3rd, 2012, 09:47 PM.

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    • #47
      Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

      Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
      No one ever said anything and discharge for fraudulent enlistment. That is a completely different discharge used under a different section of the regulation. Mainly that is used for people that lie their way in.....we all agree that is not you.

      There is no such thing as a "Medical Discharge" in the context he is using. There must be a specific citation from the regulation for the exact narrative reason for separation....that narrative cannot stop at 6-35...there must be a subparagraph that correlates. 6-35 summarizes every single way you can be separated, one of those "ways" they are applying to you. And, the way they are using...is failure to meet procurement enlistment standards.
      Understood. I thought the implication of the reg was that I had the condition/injury prior to IET, which may have DQd me, which it didn't.

      I will inquire as to the narrative they intend to list on my packet, but I was told it is inevitably up to the Chief and CSM when they review my packet and medical records what the final discharge characterization, etc will be.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

        Originally posted by Chris36 View Post
        I thought the implication of the reg was that I had the condition/injury prior to IET
        IT IS!!! That is your problem.

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        • #49
          Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

          I know (now) that's what it implies, but I thought it constituted FE. I know neither are good.....

          I have inquired as to the specific narrative that will used when my packet is submitted.
          Last edited by Chris36; October 3rd, 2012, 09:58 PM.

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          • #50
            Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

            You have no documentation of it happening at training, you are still in the pipeline so they use "failed to meet procurement standards". How exactly do you expect her to fight that paralegal?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

              Originally posted by HR NCO View Post
              You have no documentation of it happening at training, you are still in the pipeline so they use "failed to meet procurement standards". How exactly do you expect her to fight that paralegal?
              1. I recognize it may be a losing fight, but that doesn't make it right.

              2. The fact that she is still in the pipeline is irrelevant considering the text in the regulation...in any event, I have a problem that it is not being throughly explained to her. The situation is not as simple as a "medical discharge" as they like to portray.

              3. If this is entirely true...In the last two months, I severely aggravated an injury in my arm (that I received at BCT) while drilling with the OCS candidates and have completely torn the ligament away from my elbow.....I find it very hard to believe there is not someone, anyone that can help validate she injured herself, or at a bare minimum aggravated an injury do to service at drill.

              4. I see this so much it is ridiculous. The Guard separates whoever they want, when they want to do it regardless of what the regulation says, and they frequently sidestep MEB/PEB.

              5. Clearly, no one has initiated a proper separation packet, using the notification procedure as outline and required in the regulation. If they had, she would have fully understood the situation. They are just going to cut an order and call it a day.

              Wrong Answer.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                Originally posted by ParalegalNCO1 View Post
                1. I recognize it may be a losing fight, but that doesn't make it right.

                2. The fact that she is still in the pipeline is irrelevant considering the text in the regulation...in any event, I have a problem that it is not being throughly explained to her. The situation is not as simple as a "medical discharge" as they like to portray.

                3. If this is entirely true...In the last two months, I severely aggravated an injury in my arm (that I received at BCT) while drilling with the OCS candidates and have completely torn the ligament away from my elbow.....I find it very hard to believe there is not someone, anyone that can help validate she injured herself, or at a bare minimum aggravated an injury do to service at drill.

                4. I see this so much it is ridiculous. The Guard separates whoever they want, when they want to do it regardless of what the regulation says, and they frequently sidestep MEB/PEB.

                5. Clearly, no one has initiated a proper separation packet, using the notification procedure as outline and required in the regulation. If they had, she would have fully understood the situation. They are just going to cut an order and call it a day.

                Wrong Answer.
                If they are discharging her, isn't she afforded JAG representation? Are there any steps she can take to slow this process down so that she can fight to have this handled properly?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                  Originally posted by Polo08816 View Post
                  If they are discharging her, isn't she afforded JAG representation? Are there any steps she can take to slow this process down so that she can fight to have this handled properly?
                  Yeah, of course....if they actually do a Separation Process....as opposed to just a separation.

                  Welcome to the National Guard.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                    2. The fact that she is still in the pipeline is irrelevant considering the text in the regulation...in any event, I have a problem that it is not being throughly explained to her. The situation is not as simple as a "medical discharge" as they like to portray.

                    Agreed, "medical discharge" is thrown around to loosely most of the time




                    3. If this is entirely true...In the last two months, I severely aggravated an injury in my arm (that I received at BCT) while drilling with the OCS candidates and have completely torn the ligament away from my elbow.....I find it very hard to believe there is not someone, anyone that can help validate she injured herself, or at a bare minimum aggravated an injury do to service at drill.

                    If something happened during OCS and there was never any documentation of a pre-existing condition then why was it not documented at OCS and an LOD given?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                      Your second question is a great question. You know some units hate doing LOD's...it's a pain. You also know, young recruits are hesitant to report things because of the stigma. But I don't really know why.

                      Even if there was a pre existing condition...if it wasn't fraudulently concealed and it was further aggravated by service, there would still be rights to MEB/PEB......if LOD of course.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                        There was no pre-existing condition, I strained it at bct which hurt but I could still train. The MEPS doctor (who recently reviewed my records) noted it as "chronic pain". Yeah, its been a year, but that's because my family doctor tried more conservative treatments first; ice, rest, arm band (it was simple lateral epicondilitis), when that didn't help we tried physical therapy and eventual steroid shots. The 1st round was heaven sent, NO pain from DEC_JUN, but the second round didn't last as long. Every time the shots relieved the pain I had to train harder than ever to keep my PT OCS-worthy (probably contributing to the eventual tear).

                        OCS?? When I felt I had seriously reaggrevated my injury, I expressed to the PL I wanted to see the medic. No one saw me. The next morning at 05:00, first formation, I again expressed I wanted to see the medic. All day passed, no one came to collect me. Sunday be leaving I'm called to the TAC office and was told I had "better get my sh*t together and stop acting like a victim". I cannot document it myself, so what else should I have tried??

                        So what was I to do?? Go off on my TAC? Whine and stomp for due process? I wanted to be an officer and the new "problem child" but once I got home and realized I cannot even button a button, I new I had hurt something bad.

                        I have contacted JAG three times and no one has called me back, expressing WHY I need to talk to him.
                        Last edited by Chris36; October 4th, 2012, 07:26 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                          Originally posted by Chris36 View Post
                          There was no pre-existing condition, I strained it at bct which hurt but I could still train. The MEPS doctor (who recently reviewed my records) noted it as "chronic pain". Yeah, its been a year, but that's because my family doctor tried more conservative treatments first; ice, rest, arm band (it was simple lateral epicondilitis), when that didn't help we tried physical therapy and eventual steroid shots. The 1st round was heaven sent, NO pain from DEC_JUN, but the second round didn't last as long. Every time the shots relieved the pain I had to train harder than ever to keep my PT OCS-worthy (probably contributing to the eventual tear).

                          OCS?? When I felt I had seriously reaggrevated my injury, I expressed to the PL I wanted to see the medic. No one saw me. The next morning at 05:00, first formation, I again expressed I wanted to see the medic. All day passed, no one came to collect me. Sunday be leaving I'm called to the TAC office and was told I had "better get my sh*t together and stop acting like a victim". I cannot document it myself, so what else should I have tried??

                          So what was I to do?? Go off on my TAC? Whine and stomp for due process? I wanted to be an officer and the new "problem child" but once I got home and realized I cannot even button a button, I new I had hurt something bad.

                          I have contacted JAG three times and no one has called me back, expressing WHY I need to talk to him.
                          Try to utilize sources outside of the National Guard. Ie. Your Congressman.

                          I had a situation that was similar to yours when I was at OCS. I utilized the IG, NGB-IG, EO, JAG, and my Congressman. Eventually, it was my Congressman that was the heavy hitter. Within a few phone calls, he pretty much wrecked everyone involved at that unit and reversed much of the BS that was going on. I would not be an officer today if it was not for him. Heck, he even called me on my personal cell phone to ask how my soldiers and I were doing after we were struck by lightning at Fort Drum before brigade even did. It always felt I've had him as a guardian angel my entire time in the Army.

                          I'm not saying that this way might help for you. But I can't imagine myself just taking some NCO's word for it when it came down to my career. If someone is trying to shortchange my career intentionally, I'm the type of person that is going to fight until the end. I don't mind bringing everyone down in the process. I didn't join the Army to be nice to people.

                          The real question I have for you is: what lengths are you willing to go to fight this?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                            Originally posted by Polo08816 View Post
                            Try to utilize sources outside of the National Guard. Ie. Your Congressman.

                            I had a situation that was similar to yours when I was at OCS. I utilized the IG, NGB-IG, EO, JAG, and my Congressman. Eventually, it was my Congressman that was the heavy hitter. Within a few phone calls, he pretty much wrecked everyone involved at that unit and reversed much of the BS that was going on. I would not be an officer today if it was not for him. Heck, he even called me on my personal cell phone to ask how my soldiers and I were doing after we were struck by lightning at Fort Drum before brigade even did. It always felt I've had him as a guardian angel my entire time in the Army.

                            I'm not saying that this way might help for you. But I can't imagine myself just taking some NCO's word for it when it came down to my career. If someone is trying to shortchange my career intentionally, I'm the type of person that is going to fight until the end. I don't mind bringing everyone down in the process. I didn't join the Army to be nice to people.

                            The real question I have for you is: what lengths are you willing to go to fight this?
                            I am willing to fight until my last breath, but I am frustrated with what recourse I have? I have no LOD, I've been told I have no say in what is listed, which is why I have been trying to contact JAG.

                            I will seek assistance from my civilian boss who is a retired MG and the Director of Vet Services. Yes, I work for freakin' Vet Services and they (the big green meanie) is trying to stick it to me. We also have an extremely pro-military congressman, who I believe is up for re-election, whom I will contact and see if they can help.

                            My husband (an O-4) works out of JFHQ by the DMVA and he is going to walk into the JAG headquarters and see what he can find out.

                            All in all, I would STILL prefer to stay IN, but I am a realist and am clearly an easy-target for the draw-down, but do they have to kill my chances to serve at all?

                            I have NEVER before enlisted the help from the people I know and work with; I've always done it myself with the 'help" from politics, but I think its time to pull out my Rolodex.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                              Originally posted by Chris36 View Post
                              I am willing to fight until my last breath, but I am frustrated with what recourse I have? I have no LOD, I've been told I have no say in what is listed, which is why I have been trying to contact JAG.

                              I will seek assistance from my civilian boss who is a retired MG and the Director of Vet Services. Yes, I work for freakin' Vet Services and they (the big green meanie) is trying to stick it to me. We also have an extremely pro-military congressman, who I believe is up for re-election, whom I will contact and see if they can help.

                              My husband (an O-4) works out of JFHQ by the DMVA and he is going to walk into the JAG headquarters and see what he can find out.

                              All in all, I would STILL prefer to stay IN, but I am a realist and am clearly an easy-target for the draw-down, but do they have to kill my chances to serve at all?

                              I have NEVER before enlisted the help from the people I know and work with; I've always done it myself with the 'help" from politics, but I think its time to pull out my Rolodex.
                              For what its worth...I don't think anyone is going out of their way to do you wrong. In my opinion the administratvie seperation process is broken across the board in the National Guard since there is a lack of full time legal people like me who would normally do this work. In our absense....someone has to do it.

                              They are just working in their normal enviorment for what their used too.....doesn't make it right though.

                              Outside of the fact that you may have a medical DQ, you may get discharged, you may not be able to enlist again or maybe you can....I don't know any of that; the real concern is if you were truly injured on duty, and you are requireing surgery, it could cause a mess for you down the road. You should have the ability for VA compensation, if needed.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: A Big Thanks To Everyone On The Forum

                                And again.....if you want these people you speak with today to take you seriously, forget that the guy on the internet told you this

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