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  • Fraternization?

    I just recently found out that a SPC is dating a SGT and both are in my section. We have two SSG's, two SGT's, two SPC's, and two PFC's in my section and was unsure if this actually counts as fraternization before I talk to her or maybe my section leader about it? They are each in different 'teams' however we all fall under the same section, not sure if that makes a difference or not. I tried reading the regulations on fraternization but they're a bit grey when it comes to the National Guard/Reservists. She doesn't know that I found out btw, so that's why I want to make sure I get it right before I say something and she's also my friend so I worry about her getting into trouble.

    Here's an example of what I meant:
    CPT > SSG > SGT > SPC > PFC
    CPT
    2LT > SSG > SGT > SPC > PFC
    Last edited by blondiexo; October 14th, 2012, 10:40 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Fraternization?

    Is one in the rating or supervisory chain of the other? If so, then quietly mention this to your chain of command. Even if they don't favor each other, it creates the appearance of impropriety, so for their own protection they should have some professional separation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Fraternization?

      Originally posted by matthew.ritchie View Post
      Is one in the rating or supervisory chain of the other? If so, then quietly mention this to your chain of command. Even if they don't favor each other, it creates the appearance of impropriety, so for their own protection they should have some professional separation.
      Not usually, there was a situation during AT where there were only a few of us and he ended up in charge of us for that short period of time, but the rest of the time it's the CPT provider and the two SSG's who run the section.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Fraternization?

        Since one is an NCO and the other a SPC, I would see a problem come in if the SGT was a Squad Leader/Platoon Sergeant or, as LTC mentioned, became a grader for the SPC. Aside from the above scenarios, there's no hard fast rule they can't date as long as it doesn't become a distraction to the rest of the unit or starts affecting their professionalism.

        That being said, if it makes YOU feel uncomfortable, you can always talk to your Readiness NCO.
        Last edited by B.Wood; October 16th, 2012, 01:46 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Fraternization?

          Originally posted by blondiexo View Post
          I just recently found out that a SPC is dating a SGT and both are in my section. We have two SSG's, two SGT's, two SPC's, and two PFC's in my section and was unsure if this actually counts as fraternization before I talk to her or maybe my section leader about it? They are each in different 'teams' however we all fall under the same section, not sure if that makes a difference or not. I tried reading the regulations on fraternization but they're a bit grey when it comes to the National Guard/Reservists. She doesn't know that I found out btw, so that's why I want to make sure I get it right before I say something and she's also my friend so I worry about her getting into trouble.

          Here's an example of what I meant:
          CPT > SSG > SGT > SPC > PFC
          CPT
          2LT > SSG > SGT > SPC > PFC
          If neither person is on active duty there isn't really anything "illegal" about it. True fraternization as described by the UCMJ can only be applied to an officer. Us enlisted folk are governed under AR 600-20 by "relationships of soldiers with different rank". If the SGT is not supervising the SPC, than again there is no legality issue initially, unless it gets to the point that this SGT has arguments or interferes with the SPC's actual supervisor (who I am guessing is also a SGT).......at that point it becomes an improper relationship.

          Even if the latter occurs and it becomes improper, there is not a lot of recourse that can be taken if they are not on active duty. The regulation allows them to have a relationship "civilian in nature" if they are only in drilling status.

          All of that aside, I would recommend simply counseling them on the rules, let them know they haven't done anything wrong, and recommend the senior person voluntarily request a transfer to avoid any perception of an inappropriate relationship.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Fraternization?

            Originally posted by RyCass View Post
            Since one is an NCO and the other a SPC, I would see a problem come in if the SGT was a Squad Leader/Platoon Sergeant or, as LTC mentioned, became a grader for the SPC. Aside from the above scenarios, there's no hard fast rule they can't date as long as it doesn't doesn't become a distraction to the rest of the unit or starts affecting their professionalism.

            That being said, if it makes YOU feel uncomfortable, you can always talk to your Readiness NCO.
            What is that thing they say all the time at the range before you start firing?...Oh, thats right. They say.....

            Watch your lane.
            Last edited by ParalegalNCO1; October 15th, 2012, 10:47 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Fraternization?

              that is just NCO's. i know an officer and enlisted dating. there was complaint and report that this officer and enlisted was having a relationship. as of right now this two even sleep in one roof. i have a hard evedince that i submit it when i made the complaint but they did not see it as enough evidence. does some officer know actually the world fraternization is? is there any good number or hotline that i could call regarding about this? thanks.

              D4TUN81

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Fraternization?

                It's stuff like this that makes me thankful for being a combat arms soldier.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Fraternization?

                  Originally posted by D4TUN81 View Post
                  that is just NCO's. i know an officer and enlisted dating. there was complaint and report that this officer and enlisted was having a relationship. as of right now this two even sleep in one roof. i have a hard evedince that i submit it when i made the complaint but they did not see it as enough evidence. does some officer know actually the world fraternization is? is there any good number or hotline that i could call regarding about this? thanks.

                  D4TUN81
                  First your post's grammar is atrocious. Secondly, while fraternization is potentially a chargeable offense under the UCMJ, Guardsmen not serving on active duty are not subject to the UCMJ. There is even a caveat that makes the entire issue moot if the relationship predates or is primarily a result of outside civilian contact. Ultimately the intent of the articles is to ensure good order and discipline. There are a variety of issues that CAN negatively effect unit operations. A company commander having a romantic relationship with one of his junior enlisted personnel could cause a host of problems, but a Sergeant dating that same Captain who is in another unit and doesn't have any chain of command influence is really not significant in any way. I would say stop witch hunting and mind your own business unless it's OBVIOUSLY creating some kind of real inequity that you can demonstrate.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Fraternization?

                    Originally posted by D4TUN81 View Post
                    that is just NCO's. i know an officer and enlisted dating. there was complaint and report that this officer and enlisted was having a relationship. as of right now this two even sleep in one roof. i have a hard evedince that i submit it when i made the complaint but they did not see it as enough evidence. does some officer know actually the world fraternization is? is there any good number or hotline that i could call regarding about this? thanks.

                    D4TUN81
                    If they are not both on active duty or military technician status, there is no violation of any rules.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Fraternization?

                      Originally posted by Mr.Incognito View Post
                      If they are not both on active duty or military technician status, there is no violation of any rules.
                      This is correct, Nationa Guard has different regulations than Active Duty. You can refer to Army Pamphlet 600-35 ‘’Relationship Between Soldiers of a Different Rank’’ or....

                      4–14. Relationships between Soldiers of different rank c. (1) In the case of Army National Guard or United States Army Reserve personnel, this prohibition does not apply to relationships that exist due to their civilian occupation or employment.

                      (2) Dating -

                      (c) Personal relationships between members of the National Guard or Army Reserve, when the relationship primarily
                      exists due to civilian acquaintanceships, unless the individuals are on active duty (other than annual training), on full-time National Guard duty (other than annual training), or serving as a dual status military technician.

                      (d) Personal relationships between members of the Regular Army and members of the National Guard or Army Reserve when the relationship primarily exists due to civilian association and the Reserve component member is not on active duty (other than annual training), on full-time National Guard duty (other than annual training), or serving as a
                      dual status military technician.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Fraternization?

                        They are both active guard which they wear military uniform everyday.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Fraternization?

                          Originally posted by Mongoose772 View Post
                          First your post's grammar is atrocious. Secondly, while fraternization is potentially a chargeable offense under the UCMJ, Guardsmen not serving on active duty are not subject to the UCMJ. There is even a caveat that makes the entire issue moot if the relationship predates or is primarily a result of outside civilian contact. Ultimately the intent of the articles is to ensure good order and discipline. There are a variety of issues that CAN negatively effect unit operations. A company commander having a romantic relationship with one of his junior enlisted personnel could cause a host of problems, but a Sergeant dating that same Captain who is in another unit and doesn't have any chain of command influence is really not significant in any way. I would say stop witch hunting and mind your own business unless it's OBVIOUSLY creating some kind of real inequity that you can demonstrate.
                          Good advice....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Fraternization?

                            Originally posted by D4TUN81 View Post
                            They are both active guard which they wear military uniform everyday.
                            Active Guard or Title 32 status is different then active duty Title 10. On T10 all the rules of the UCMJ apply where T32 falls under that states rules.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Fraternization?

                              How does this negatively impact you?

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