Shoulder Sleeve Insignia/USMC

[DevilDog]

While in the USMC I was part of a Marine Detachment on board an aircraft carrier off the coast of Somalia. We were sent in to support the 1st Force Service Support Group and the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit in Mogadishu during Operation Restore Hope. Am I authorized to wear the 1st Marine Division SSI? I have a copy of my NAVMC 118 (9)/Combat History-Expeditions-Awards Record (1070) stating dates of participation.

[matthew.ritchie]

Ref: AR 670-1 (dtd 3 Feb 2005)

Para 28–17. Shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSI–FWTS)
a. General. Authorization to wear a shoulder sleeve insignia indicating former wartime service applies only to soldiers who are assigned to U.S. Army units that meet all the following criteria. Soldiers who were prior members of other Services that participated in operations that would otherwise meet the criteria below are not authorized to wear the SSI–FWTS. Wear is reserved for individuals who were members of U.S. Army units during the operations.
...
(3) Other services. The Department of the Navy, the United States Marine Corps (USMC), and the Air Force do not authorize wear of SSI. Therefore, personnel who served in one of the designated areas during one of the specified periods, but who were not members of the U.S. Army, are not authorized to wear the SSI–FWTS on their right shoulder. The only exception to this policy is for U.S. Army members who served with the USMC during World War II from 15 March 1943 through 2 September 1946.

[andrew.tischner]

I am 99 percent sure this is a NO.

The 1st Marine Division Patch is worn by Army personal assigned to the 1st Marine Division.

Had a Marine in our recruiter school that was told to take it off as he wasnt assigned as a army member to the division.

[christopher.robbins]

AR 670-1...NO USMC patches with 2 or 3 exceptions and those are VERY specifically mentioned, and they are for soldiers that served WITH Marines under certain circumstances. As a former Marine, I pound other Marines who wear USMC patches on their uniforms. The title Marine is enough which is why they don't wear them in the first place...

[AmPat]

(3) Other services. The Department of the Navy, the United States Marine Corps (USMC), and the Air Force do not authorize wear of SSI.

Is this to say that the ARMY itself would never authorize it?

I realize the Army is not a democracy, but no good organization is completely top-down. For instance, when a new medal or device comes out, was the Secretary of the Army the one who initiated its creation? Of course not. Some soldier probably thought of it and brought it to the attention of the right people.

By that same token, I wonder if there is a process for revising the authorization of the Marine Corps SSI. On the other hand, I can see how it may be perceived as detracting from pride in (Army) service

[AmPat]

Just thought I'd give this a bump and rephrase the question. How would one with the time and will go about sponsoring the request for authorization of a uniform device?

[matthew.ritchie]

Just thought I'd give this a bump and rephrase the question. How would one with the time and will go about sponsoring the request for authorization of a uniform device?

AR 670-1 has instructions of how to make recommendations for changes to the regulation. Don't expect changes in the near future, however. It costs only a stamp, so I say go for it.

[WO1 Quinones]

I guess the regs were not enforced when I had a former-Marine in my platoon who fought in Iraq (as a Marine in 2003) who saw soldiers with 1st MARDIV combat patches on. He took his Marine deployment orders and they added it on his ERB in the overseas/deployment section. After they did that, he wore the 1st MARDIV as his combat patch then obviously had to change it to the Screaming Eagle lol

[CPT Burritt]

Heres the skinny, the Army isn't going to authorize wear of a uniform item for service with another Branch. If you were a Marine and they didn't give it to you, why would the Army award it to you?

As has been stated, they'll give you patches for Army service under a Marine component. My understanding is though that it is only for service with a Marine unit that has a patch. All these made up deployment unit Marine patches you see must not be authorized... I don't have the ability to look it up right now though, internet too slow.

WO1: just because you have foreign service, doesn't mean your authorized a patch. The reg is pretty clear about this issue.

[WO1 Quinones]

WO1: just because you have foreign service, doesn't mean your authorized a patch. The reg is pretty clear about this issue.

Of course Captain. And its about a combat deployment not just a deployment. I been in a very long time to know that. Just bringing up a situation. Its like the soldier who didnt pass air assault school but got around the system due to an error and got his wings. We all have seen cases that things were done that contradicted what the regs stated. That was my point; not to say do what you please in total disregard for the regulations.

Have you seen soldiers with Marine Combat patches (e.g. 2nd MarDiv, 1stMarDiv) because in my travels, I have seen it many times. And its authorized. And its funny what the reg says about the Air Force because there were Airmen who wore the 101st Screaming Eagle patch on their uniform (on their right sleeve). But obviously what the AF regs says it what counts for them.

Marine unit patches went out with wear after WWII. Marines dont wear that on their uniforms but Army soldiers do wear Marine old unit patches as their combat patch.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/a/combatpatch.htm This info is after the last ar 670-1 2005 reg and I have even corresponded by email with this SGM.

http://news.webshots.com/photo/14049...63670705gwiWeB (http://news.webshots.com/photo/1404958878063670705gwiWeB)

[AmPat]

Heres the skinny, the Army isn't going to authorize wear of a uniform item for service with another Branch. If you were a Marine and they didn't give it to you, why would the Army award it to you?

With all due respect, sir, I have been proving naysayers wrong since I was a kid. I'm just exploring the possibility and what avenue of approach one would take to get it done. It's like the major said, "It only costs a stamp". Why not examine the he ll out of the regulation, exploit resources, write letters and try to get it done? If they say no, all the research will have probably taught me several lessons including Army and Marine history.

[WO1 Quinones]

With all due respect, sir, I have been proving naysayers wrong since I was a kid. I'm just exploring the possibility and what avenue of approach one would take to get it done. It's like the major said, "It only costs a stamp". Why not examine the he ll out of the regulation, exploit resources, write letters and try to get it done? If they say no, all the research will have probably taught me several lessons including Army and Marine history.

AmPAT, email the SGM. She answers email and should give you some good advice.

Sgt. Maj. Katrina Easley, branch chief for uniform policy at Army G-1

here is a photo of a National Guard soldier with a marine combat patch and its sew on (old DCUs of course) compared to velcro so somebody made this call (I am too hooah lol)

http://news.webshots.com/photo/1404958878063670705gwiWeB

[Recruiter yosis]

You can wear the patch only if you were attched to a Marine unit as a soldier.

[WO1 Quinones]

http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/uniform/docs/SSI-FWTS%20ALARACT%20Message%20055-2007.pdf

TELECOMMUNICATIONS(uc),OU:ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY(UC)
SUBJECT: ALARACT 055/2007
TEXT:
UNCLASSIFIED//
THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN SENT BY THE PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER ON BEHALF OF DA WASHINGTON DC//DAPE-HRPD-IRPD//
SUBJECT: AR 670-1, 3 FEB 05, WEAR AND APPEARANCE OF ARMY UNIFORMS AND INSIGNIA
1. THIS MESSAGE SERVES AS IMPLEMENTING INSTRUCTIONS FOR CHANGES TO THE WEAR POLICY OUTLINED IN AR 670-1, APPENDIX F, SHOULDER SLEEVE INSIGNIA-FORMER WARTIME SERVICE (SSI-FWTS).
2. SINCE 1945, THE INTENT OF THE WEAR OF THE SSI-FWTS HAS BEEN TO DENOTE SOLDIERS PARTICIPATION IN COMBAT OPERATIONS, AS DIRECTED BY THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY, WHILE SERVING WITH LARGE ECHELON DEPLOYED UNITS. BASED ON THE WAY UNITS ARE CURRENTLY DEPLOYING, THE WEAR POLICY FOR THE SSI-FWTS MUST BE REVISED TO CLEARLY CAPTURE THE WARTIME RELATIONSHIP WITH FIGHTING UNITS ON THE GROUND.
3. THIS POLICY CHANGE IS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY AND IS NOT RETROACTIVE.
4. THIS GUIDANCE APPLIES TO SOLDIERS OF ALL COMPONENTS (ACTIVE, ARNG, AND USAR) THAT DEPLOY DURING PERIODS OF SERVICE DESIGNATED FOR WEAR OF THE SSI-FWTS, IN ACCORDANCE WITH AR 670-1, PARAGRAPH 28-17.
5. THERE IS NO TIME-IN-THEATER REQUIREMENT TO BE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE SSI-FWTS.
6. A DEPLOYED UNIT (COMPANY OR HIGHER) WILL WEAR THEIR UNIT S SSI AS THE SSI-FWTS. THIS IS TRUE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE HEADQUARTERS ELEMENT DEPLOYS, AND REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF CHANGES TO THE UNIT S ALIGNMENT OR OPERATIONAL CONTROL (OPCON) DURING THE PERIOD OF DEPLOYMENT.
7. WHEN ECHELONS BELOW COMPANY LEVEL DEPLOY, MEMBERS OF THESE UNITS WILL WEAR THE SSI OF THE LOWEST ECHELON DEPLOYED UNIT (COMPANY OR HIGHER) IN THEIR NEW DEPLOYED CHAINS OF COMMAND AS THEIR SSI-FWTS.
8. WHEN THERE IS NO INTERMEDIATE UNIT (COMPANY OR HIGHER) IN THE DEPLOYED CHAIN OF COMMAND, DEPLOYED SOLDIERS WILL WEAR THE SSI OF THE SENIOR ARMY COMMAND IN THE THEATER AS THEIR SSI-FWTS.
9. SOLDIERS WHO ARE CROSS-LEVELED, ASSIGNED, ATTACHED, OR AUGMENTING DEPLOYED UNITS, AND SOLDIERS WHO ARE TDY ON ORDERS THROUGH THE USE OF DD FORM 1610 (REQUEST AND AUTHORIZATION FOR TDY TRAVEL OF DOD PERSONNEL) WILL WEAR THE SAME SSI-FWTS WORN BY MEMBERS OF THEIR DEPLOYED UNIT (COMPANY OR HIGHER) TO WHICH ATTACHED OR OPCON. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO MEMBERS OF TRIAL DEFENSE AND CIDC, WHO WILL WEAR THE SSI OF THEIR RESPECTIVE COMMANDS AS THEIR SSI-FWTS.
10. SOLDIERS AUTHORIZED TO WEAR MORE THAN ONE SSI-FWTS MAY CHOOSE WHICH SSI-FWTS THEY WEAR. SOLDIERS MAY ALSO ELECT NOT TO WEAR THE SSI-FWTS.
11. PRECEDENCE WAS ESTABLISHED IN VIETNAM FOR ELEMENTS ORGANIC TO, OR AN INTEGRAL PART OF AN ORGANIZATION TO WEAR THE ORGANIZATIONAL SSI AS THEIR SSI-FWTS.
12. SOLDIERS ATTACHED OR OPCON TO OTHER SERVICES ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO WEAR OTHER SERVICES PATCHES AS THEIR SSI-FWTS WITHOUT WRITTEN APPROVAL FROM THE DCS, ARMY G-1 OR A DELEGATED REPRESENTATIVE.
13. POC FOR UNIFORM POLICY IS SGM K. EASLEY, DSN 225-5287; COMM. (703) 695-5287. E-MAIL IS KATRINA.EASLEY@HQDA.ARMY.MIL.
14. THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE DCS, G-1.
15. THIS AUTHORITY IS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.
16. EXPIRATION. THIS MESSAGE WILL EXPIRE UPON NEXT PUBLICATION OF AR 670-1.
17. EXPIRATION DATE CANNOT BE DETERMINED.


There have been approvals as mentioned in number 12 and soldiers have just shown the memorandums to anyone who questioned them about it. But that is the reason why soldiers wear Marine patches. Also, when you are an NG soldier that is not under federal title 10 duty, the State COC can make uniform authorizations not mandated by big Army. Somebody has to check an NG reg on that but I remember that being talked about as well.

[WO1 Quinones]

Hey, I will be happy with just one lol
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/pk000003.jpg

[CPT Burritt]

AmPat -

Write away. There is nothing that says that it can't be changed. Many Soldiers I know have been trying to get the regulations changed to accept a local school as a permanent badge for all personnel. Everyone should act if they feel strongly about a subject.

That being said, don't be the guy who balks at regulations as a way of showing your displeasure. Until the change is made, you're still not authorized to wear it. Before anyone brings up the Green Berets or some of singular event that changed uniform policy, I am well aware that it has happened, but they were coordinated events of defiance that were not able to be ignored, and had command influence. It was not handfuls of people around the US who may or may not have the support or interest of their commands. This is a significantly different matter that to me requires pushing through the proper channels, and adherance to the policy in the mean time.

Thanks for the ALARACT WO1. Thats exactly what I was referring to. Unless you have a memorandum signed by the DCS or an authorized representative (it'll be someone from Human Resources Command) its a no go. All the Soldiers operating with the MEUs and Marine Divisions get authorization letters signed by HRC, its the only patch that requires that level of documentation.

In this day and age it seems that those who enforce the standards are becoming a smaller group. I have absolutely no problem asking for proof of awards or decorations. Its about time some people in the Army took some pride in the wear of heraldic items. If you can't show the proof, you'll get it stripped right there. Its not a "do what you want" Army, and we don't get to make up our own version of the rules because we feel like it.

AmPat, this is by no means a shot at you, I know you want to celebrate your service. Just ensure that the way you do it is the authorized solution.

A word on NG uniform descrepancies: yes, the states can accept different uniform standards, and authorize additional items. Mostly this has to do with additional awards such as Governor's Twenty (shooting awards), Honor Guard Distinctive Items, and some Badges (Moutain Warfare for example). However, for the vast majority of items the States do not differ from DA regs. I have yet to see a State that would authorize wear of an SSI-FWTS that was not DA approved. If it were to happen, you can guarantee there would be considerable backlash from DA/DoD.