Straight 09s or Enlisted to Officer?

[mheathershaw]

In your experience, have you noticed a distinct difference between officers that are straight out of college/OCS (who enlisted 09s) and officers that have spent some time on the enlisted side? I'm specifically talking about: ability to lead effectively, decision making, professionalism, etc...

Your thoughts?

[jmclaughlin1701]

Incoming!!

[dnall]

There is no difference.

E1-E4 time is not going to make you a better officer in any way at all. You learn all the same soldier skills in a commissioning program. The years of being in a military environment are fine, but not worth the time wasted.

Time as an NCO does bring some clear positives, but it also creates a LOT of things you need to un-learn. The problem is you aren't going to start into NCO ranks for several years. It's for sure not worth putting off your commission date to reach that point.

ROTC-SMP is the best way to get experience while staying on track to commission & get moving in your officer career. I think OCS is a better training program, but with less troop exposure & money for you. Really, don't waste time enlisted if your goal is to be an officer. Just work hard & become a good officer.

[cyall]

ROTC-SMP is the best way to get experience while staying on track to commission & get moving in your officer career. I think OCS is a better training program, but with less troop exposure & money for you. Really, don't waste time enlisted if your goal is to be an officer. Just work hard & become a good officer.

I agree with this for the most part. A lot of the money for SMP cadets is from VA benefits and FTA. Those can be had by completing IET, so OCS is n't far behind. The last sentence is excellent advice.

[lindy]

The last sentence is excellent advice.

Yes, but what does it mean to be a good Officer? Does it have the same meaning to both Officer and Enlisted?

[Chaplain4me]

From my experience there is a great chasm inbetween the two.

I know several retired career officers all o-4 and o-5, when I told them I was enlisting, they acted all confused and asked why would I do that when I could become an officer?

I know several career enlisted also, many of which have all the qualifications to be great commissioned leaders. And I've asked them on occasion why they haven't become officers. I've heard things like, "Officers have too much paperwork," "I enjoy soldiering," "I like to work." One went as far as to say that you have to have someone to blame (officers) when something goes wrong. From my understanding, they just enjoy their jobs.

As an officer more is expected of you. A junior enlisted person is told everything to do. Sometimes they just let us candidates figure out how to do it.

I heard a joke, what is the difference between a 2LT and LT when ordered how to paint the top of a flag pole with a ladder that only reaches halfway?

Well the 2LT takes the ladder out and tries to paint it. The LT says, "First Sergeant!!!!!"

[Chaplain4me]

Your situation is unique and there are other considerations you have to think about, such as, your age? You may be approaching the maximum age limt to commission.

Consider also, if you do go 09s, are you wanting to go on active duty? It is more difficult for officers to get released than enlisted.

You may have a mos that you would love doing, as an officer you have less say as to your branch.

If you are already a college graduate and are young I would just do 09s; because if you were to go from enlisted to officer you would still have to fulfill the time in grade requirments for promotion. Everyone starts off at 2LT, except say the specialty branches. 18 months is what it takes to become a LT. Might as well get an early start. ??? my 2 cents.

[MAJ Powers]

I apologize for posting a novel, but officership and officer development are really important subjects.

Anecdotal evidence abounds when soldiers swap stories about officers that those with enlisted experience perform in a superior manner in contrast with their non-PS peers, especially in the junior officer grades. I specifically recall two cadets in my class with prior service in the infantry (3-75 and 7th ID respectively) who were truly stellar performers. In contrast, a third prior service cadet in my cohort was in no way equipped to be commissioned. The most evident skills this individual possessed were complaining about the demands of the program and a marked ability to avoid responsibility. So we’re dealing with a range of individuals, as in any walk of life.

The positives of prior service include familiarity with customs and courtesies, drill, wear and appearance of the uniform, basic soldiering, and a general understanding of the rhythms of how a small unit functions. More importantly, one develops empathy for the troops and their lot, having learned to be a follower and dealing with being the CQ runner, duty driver, guard at the heavy drop rig site, etc. That buys a new officer some early credibility with soldiers because they feel since you walked in their shoes, you understand their issues.

In terms of preparing one to actually serve as an officer; enlisted time does not have a direct impact. As stated by Dnall, every candidate and cadet goes through the same program of instruction for commissioning, whether through OCS, USMA, or ROTC. The pace and intensity of each program varies (a different discussion), but everyone completes the same tasks to earn their bars. Prior experience may help some excel but is no way necessary. Upon commissioning, the playing field is equal and your are judged by what you do, not what you once did.

When a new officer joins a unit, that individual is on display: appearance, fitness, competence, attitude, everything. A new lieutenant leading a platoon is in the un-enviable opinion of leading troops while also learning from them. At that point, even officers with prior service are in a learning mode due to changes in doctrine, tactics and equipment that may have occurred since he was last on the line, as well as getting used to local SOPs, not to mention the roles and responsibilities of an officer.

At the most basic level, NCOs are responsible for individual training and readiness, and officers are responsible for collective training and readiness. This means that in addition to learning how one’s platoon functions and its mission in combat, a new lieutenant is also learning about training management, maintenance, command supply discipline, and the multitude of additional duties that crop up such as urinalysis coordinator, safety officer, or MWR officer to name a few. The new lieutenant is learning from the company commander and XO about METL development, vehicle service schedules, 10% inventories, the eight step training model…there is always something. Even prior service NCOs find they are in a new world as they focus on echelons above team, squad and platoon to see how their efforts are collectively integrated into a larger picture. Again, each lieutenant is judged by how they perform in this environment. Here, some (not all, emphasis on SOME) prior service officers can experience trouble in that they were successful NCOs, and revert to the same behavior once commissioned. They are narrowly focused on the individual tasks that support the platoon’s battle tasks and may micromanage the individual training the NCOs are mandated to conduct.

In the midst of all this, officers are responsible for the well-being of the troops. Team Leaders, Squad Leaders and PSG are all tracking the issues involving their soldiers. The PL needs to be read in as well, not to micromanage, but in order to affect positive change when someone hits a brick wall of a problem. Pay issues, sick family members, screwed up paperwork… does the PL know and care enough to help? New officers need to quickly learn about ACS, AER, and the FRG (for starters) and know who they can contact to provide their troops aid when they need it. An officer needs to be a servant leader, and ensure the troops’ needs are met. This is a readiness issue. If a PL doesn’t care, the troops take notice and that means more to them than whether that officer was once enlisted.

After a few years of this, an officer starts to become truly value added, is an experienced soldier in his own right and ready to command his own company. Then he needs to start training his new officers in what right looks like. At this point the distinction of prior enlisted time vs. non-PS is moot.

[dnall]

Sir, I agree with everything you're saying. If I can just boil down a couple of those paragraphs to emphasize the point I was trying to make...


The positives of prior service include familiarity with customs and courtesies, drill, wear and appearance of the uniform, basic soldiering, and a general understanding of the rhythms of how a small unit functions. More importantly, one develops empathy for the troops and their lot, having learned to be a follower and dealing with being the CQ runner, duty driver, guard at the heavy drop rig site, etc. That buys a new officer some early credibility with soldiers because they feel since you walked in their shoes, you understand their issues.

[snip]

After a few years of this, an officer starts to become truly value added, is an experienced soldier in his own right and ready to command his own company. Then he needs to start training his new officers in what right looks like. At this point the distinction of prior enlisted time vs. non-PS is moot.

Everyone's always concerned with that first day you step in front of your first platoon as a brand new LT. First impressions are important, but that only goes so far.

YES, prior soldier experience is going to give you a leg up for the first few months. There's still going to be volumes you don't know, but at least you're competent at being in the Army. It's not valueless, but it's not worth the cost.

2-4-6 years enlisted to gain advantages that are going to exist for a few months to maybe a year? It's not worth putting off your officership to get that experience. When you're a MAJ or LTC looking at how long you have left to retirement - when you start seeing remaining time as the limitation on what you're going to be able to achieve in life and this career, you're going to want those years back. You're going to wish you didn't put off your commission for something that wasn't worth the cost.

The majority of what makes a good officer are personality traits that have nothing to do with the military, and you're not likely to pick up by just doing time. What we can teach, you'll learn in your commissioning and branch training programs. But, in reality, that first year for everyone is being thrown in the fire unprepared. You're going to get knocked down. You'll be humbled. And you're going to get back up into a mentor relationship with some officer(s) above you and some NCO(s) below you. You're going to learn your job and grow as a person. Whatever you turn into in 2-3-5 years is either going to be a good officer or it's not. You're going to have skills in certain areas and weaknesses in others. Nothing can fully prepare you for it, and nothing can substitute for it - not enlisted time or anything else.

I'm all for doing everything you can for self development & being as prepared as possible. I'm not in favor of shooting yourself in the foot to see what it feels like, or soldiers might better empathize with you or vice versa. Just quit worrying & get to work.

[mheathershaw]

I find a lot a value in the thoughts shared here. Believe me when I say I'm middle of the road about this whole thing. I'm definitely not afraid to be humbled and learn new things.

I also like the fact that the Guard has the State OCS option available. It seems like that would give new officer candidates more time to get used to the "military way".

[lindy]

Great post Major.


In the midst of all this, officers are responsible for the well-being of the troops. Team Leaders, Squad Leaders and PSG are all tracking the issues involving their soldiers. The PL needs to be read in as well, not to micromanage, but in order to affect positive change when someone hits a brick wall of a problem. Pay issues, sick family members, screwed up paperwork… does the PL know and care enough to help? New officers need to quickly learn about ACS, AER, and the FRG (for starters) and know who they can contact to provide their troops aid when they need it. An officer needs to be a servant leader, and ensure the troops’ needs are met. This is a readiness issue. If a PL doesn’t care, the troops take notice and that means more to them than whether that officer was once enlisted.


That's what I was waiting for.

The one thing that I've noticed about former enlisted officers is the absence of the sense of entitlement. Great, you're an officer and you've been to college but what are you going to do with your "power"?

PV2 Snuffy hasn't received his BAH yet, how does that affect you? How do your orders, especially the ones that raise eyebrows, affect your troops? Is your soldier showing signs of PTSD or is he genuinely a PITA. It's all about readiness.

Ultimately, I believe, it's all about what you want to take away from of it all. Is the journey or the destination more important?

I would highly recommend any leader read MSG Paul Howe's book (http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Training-Fight-Thoughs-Operations/dp/1420889508/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1) about leadership. It's just another tool in the box.

[RedLeg]

More importantly, one develops empathy for the troops and their lot, having learned to be a follower and dealing with being the CQ runner, duty driver, guard at the heavy drop rig site, etc. That buys a new officer some early credibility with soldiers because they feel since you walked in their shoes, you understand their issues.


Except many prior service officers shoot right past this line into babying their troops or if they were NCO's, they forget they are no longer NCO's.

Enlisted time will not make you a better officer.

[California Major]

Like all career paths, you are the sum of your education and experience.

I think empathy towards your enlisted and the lacking a sence of entitlement are great points. Qualities I would be lacking had I not spent time enlisted.

[batman]

I was an E5 Sergeant in the 82nd Airborne Div. and I think being a young Non Commissioned Officer in the Deuce was the most challenging thing I ever did. I had 9 Men I was in charge of, I knew there PT Scores, I knew where they was at all times, I knew what made them tick. What aggravated me was when I got a new guy, and molded him to where I wanted him such as PT or finally broke him from being jacked up all the time the Platoon Sgt took him out my squad and gave me 2 more jacked up guys. He wanted to spread my guys out threw the platoon, I think thats not right. I got burned out. Its on other nco's to train there guys, dont take my guys after I trained them for 6 months and finally broke them of there bad ways and then give them to another nco. That nco needs to train his own guys, I see the platoon sgts thoughts hes tryin to make the platoon better, but He needs to hold that nco's feet to the fire. I use to come in every weekend till my guys knew I wasnt messing around. I made them understand that I had nothin better to do on the weekend and finally they straitened up. Im in ROTC and went there so I could make change once I got my own platoon. I would never take my time back as enlisted. People get so caught up on going officer early cause all they worry about is where there retirement scale is going to be in 20 years. I rather go enlisted first, cause I know both sides of the table, it will hurt me on my retirement check, but for me its not about money, its about leading soldiers and being a good leader. I feel I will be a better LT cause I was a young E5 sergeant. Thats just me though, going Officer without being enlisted isnt bad, its just not the route Id like to go. Being a Private really made me understand what my Joe's went threw. So in a sense I can relate not only to the Soldiers but the NCO's as well, cause I know how hard it is.

[dnall]

I was an E5 Sergeant in the 82nd Airborne Div. and I think being a young Non Commissioned Officer in the Deuce was the most challenging thing I ever did. I had 9 Men I was in charge of, I knew there PT Scores, I knew where they was at all times, I knew what made them tick. What aggravated me was when I got a new guy, and molded him to where I wanted him such as PT or finally broke him from being jacked up all the time the Platoon Sgt took him out my squad and gave me 2 more jacked up guys. He wanted to spread my guys out threw the platoon, I think thats not right. I got burned out. Its on other nco's to train there guys, dont take my guys after I trained them for 6 months and finally broke them of there bad ways and then give them to another nco. That nco needs to train his own guys, I see the platoon sgts thoughts hes tryin to make the platoon better, but He needs to hold that nco's feet to the fire. I use to come in every weekend till my guys knew I wasnt messing around. I made them understand that I had nothin better to do on the weekend and finally they straitened up. Im in ROTC and went there so I could make change once I got my own platoon. I would never take my time back as enlisted. People get so caught up on going officer early cause all they worry about is where there retirement scale is going to be in 20 years. I rather go enlisted first, cause I know both sides of the table, it will hurt me on my retirement check, but for me its not about money, its about leading soldiers and being a good leader. I feel I will be a better LT cause I was a young E5 sergeant. Thats just me though, going Officer without being enlisted isnt bad, its just not the route Id like to go. Being a Private really made me understand what my Joe's went threw. So in a sense I can relate not only to the Soldiers but the NCO's as well, cause I know how hard it is.
That's a point of view. The problem now becomes how a person like this performs as a LT.

As an NCO in that situation you see it as unfair that the PSG has you fixing hard case soldiers & then moves them out to other squads. You feel he should be holding those other SLs & TLs accountable & ensuring they perform as NCOs should. That's a valid complaint, but it's short sighted.

I'm glad you understand the PSG was trying to improve the whole Plt, and that was more important than you getting a fair deal. That's his job. Maybe he could have done more to get those other NCOs to perform, maybe not, I don't know. Maybe those other NCOs were bad, you were great as a trainer, and he was playing into the resources he was dealt. Whatever.

The fact remains that as a leader your job is to make the unit as strong as it can be with the limited resources you have. That very often means someone's not going to get a fair shake. Your job isn't to empathize with that NCO who feels like he's getting screwed & try to give him some relief. It's to exploit the skills of that NCO to train your joes. In a perfect world that load would be balanced, but that's just not the environment we work in. You would hope in the longer term you could work to bring more balance to the situation, but that's not always possible, particularly at high optempo.

A lot of prior NCOs have problems when they come across because it takes them a long time to quit thinking like an NCO. It's hard for them to not yell at that jacked up soldier, but rather talk logically to the troop's NCO instead. It's hard for them to reject individual feelings of troops in the trenches & focus on the bigger picture. You can't micromanage. You can't focus on individuals. You can't get personally involved in every little thing. You have to stay back & guide subordinate leaders while answering to higher on their priorities. It's extremely difficult for a lot of NCOs to un-learn a lot of what made them successful as NCOs, and to adopt a new way of doing things that has to be completely different.

I don't think it makes them bad officers by any means. I just think it's a challenge that counter-balances most of the gain they got from their prior experience. If it's worth it or not is a very individual equation that can't be defined for everyone.

That's NCO experience though. If you're talking about coming from being an NCO, that's one conversation. If you're talking about a kid off the street thinking about enlisting to spend a year or two as a private before going to a commissioning program, that's a different conversation all together, and that is not worth the time wasted for what can be gained.

[batman]

Yeah I would agree, that when you go from NCO to Officer you need to understand your playing a different role. I remember when I was a E5 I hated when a LT butted in my business, when I become a LT Ill know not to do that cause its NCO business. I use to think, "sir you chose to be an officer now go in your office and hush." Your totally right as to backing off and not micromanaging, and yes I understand trying to make the unit stronger and all its just really rough spending so much time on a private to walk, talk, and act a certain way, then you as their leader go on leave and come back and 2 of your best soldiers are in another squad, because the Platoon sgt wants to spread it out. I see his reasoning but in the meantime he was burning me out. Instead of griping about it , i said to myself, ill just get promoted, so I can run my platoon how I like, and make everyone accountable. I dont think you should expect good NCO's to do everything while you have other NCO's that are just trying to buy time till their next assignment. As far as going officer before enlisted, theres nothing in the world wrong with it and it want make you a better leader if you go enlisted first. I think had I know then what I know now, heck I would have gone officer first. However I would not change a thang in the world, because I had alot of challenging and very tough times as an NCO. Hopefully it will help me out, when I get commissioned. Im really behind the curb, by going enlisted first, but thats just the way it went for me, I didnt know how the army worked till about 3 years after enlisting lol.

[dnall]

There's no such thing as NCO business!

That officer is responsible to his boss for everything you do or fail to do. It's very much his business to check up on what you're doing and make corrections so it comes in line with the command's intent (to include his own intent).

The PSG is supposed to be there as the right hand man to make sure that's happening, but if the PL isn't at minimum out there spot checking to ensure it's being executed the way he called for, then he failed. If he actually does go back in that office & stay out of your way, then he really failed. He needs to give that NCO space to do his job, but it's his purpose in life to make sure not only the end result but the process too are the way it's being handed down.

Don't micromanage, but do be involved.

[batman]

Have you ever been a NCO, or did you come strait out of school?
I tell you what, you go ask your Command Sergeant Major if there is such a thing called NCO Business!!! Go ask him that. I guarantee he'll correct you. It sounds like you have never been in those NCO meetings with the First Sergeant, Cause I sure have and everyone Ive ever been in the First Sergeant or CSM lets you know to hold your own and let the LT know, Hey sir I got this. Just answer that first question I asked, Have you ever been an NCO and that will answer my question. If you have never walked in those boots, then you dont know anything about anything that is said in those NCO meetings. I know exactly what is put out cause Ive been there, so dont tell me there is no such thing as NCO Business, maybe there is no regs or policies on it but within the NCO support channel it does exist. Just ask your CSM. You know and I know that what your saying is true, the Lt is responsible for what goes on, however we both know that Lt's dont do anything. They sit in there little cubicle and play on there computer, every Lt Ive ever had was lost in the sauce and had no business going threw the ranks correcting soldiers. Its ok if he lets the Platoon Sergeant know what he sees but has no business walking around playing the Buck Sergeant. That platoon sergeant is the one who gets it done at the end of the day. You know that.

[Marine2Guard]

There's no such thing as NCO business!

That officer is responsible to his boss for everything you do or fail to do. It's very much his business to check up on what you're doing and make corrections so it comes in line with the command's intent (to include his own intent).

The PSG is supposed to be there as the right hand man to make sure that's happening, but if the PL isn't at minimum out there spot checking to ensure it's being executed the way he called for, then he failed. If he actually does go back in that office & stay out of your way, then he really failed. He needs to give that NCO space to do his job, but it's his purpose in life to make sure not only the end result but the process too are the way it's being handed down.

Don't micromanage, but do be involved.

I disagree, there is a thing as NCO business, it's their job to train soldiers. It is the officers job to tell them how and what training is needed, then to supervise. If you don't allow them to do their job (business) then by definition you are micromanaging.

[Marine2Guard]

Have you ever been a NCO, or did you come strait out of school?
I tell you what, you go ask your Command Sergeant Major if there is such a thing called NCO Business!!! Go ask him that. I guarantee he'll correct you. It sounds like you have never been in those NCO meetings with the First Sergeant, Cause I sure have and everyone Ive ever been in the First Sergeant or CSM lets you know to hold your own and let the LT know, Hey sir I got this. Just answer that first question I asked, Have you ever been an NCO and that will answer my question. If you have never walked in those boots, then you dont know anything about anything that is said in those NCO meetings. I know exactly what is put out cause Ive been there, so dont tell me there is no such thing as NCO Business, maybe there is no regs or policies on it but within the NCO support channel it does exist. Just ask your CSM. You know and I know that what your saying is true, the Lt is responsible for what goes on, however we both know that Lt's dont do anything. They sit in there little cubicle and play on there computer, every Lt Ive ever had was lost in the sauce and had no business going threw the ranks correcting soldiers. Its ok if he lets the Platoon Sergeant know what he sees but has no business walking around playing the Buck Sergeant. That platoon sergeant is the one who gets it done at the end of the day. You know that.

Seriously?? LT's don't do anything? Using your own thought process, have you been in an officers meetings? Do you know how much work we do after hours? I have been an active duty NCO and an officer and that has got to be one of the most disrespectful statements I have ever read.

[dnall]

Are you ready to be an officer at this point? Cause, someone that thinks LTs sit in an office playing games sounds real dang lost to me. Maybe you've had incompetent officers around you, I don't know. More likely you've never seen what goes on behind the scenes & don't understand how to be a manager.

NCOs do have a job to do. We all understand that. They are the primary trainers & they focus on the individual tasks/training. That LT focuses on collective/battle tasks (from the Co METL) and on commander's intent (including the PL's intent).

You can't accomplish collective tasks to standard if the individual building blocks don't provide a foundation. The PL absolutely must be out there spot checking his NCOs to ensure they are doing what they've been instructed to do the way they've been instructed to do it. When they aren't, it isn't the LTs place to step in & do it for them, it's his job to fix the jacked up NCO, hopefully with the PSG's help.

I get that SLs & TLs need to defend their lane, but the left & right limits of that lane are not defined by them. The commander defines and enforces that as a team with the PSG. They then follow up to make sure it's happening like that.

If an NCO is in their defined lane & doing what they've been instructed to do to standard, and an officer is micromanaging, then yeah, you push back & say "I got this sir." The NCO support channel is then there to back you & the 1SG can have that conversation with the CO, who can then in turn fix/mentor his PLs to follow his intent.

However, when that NCO is doing their own thing, that's not acceptable. That's where the officer is supposed to tell them "that's the wrong answer" and make corrections. If that officer is hanging out in an office drinking coffee & playing games, rather than leading the platoon, then they are very wrong.

[batman]

I could not agree with you more. Your totally right. I think I just got off to the wrong start with you. That is a good thread and I completely agree. The officers I was around were just lazy I guess. I feel I am ready to be an officer, trust me I can lead al ot better than the ones that have led me.

[Mongoose772]

Sir,

I obtained my commission after 12 years of NCO service, and this diatribe, albiet long winded, couldn't be better said! Excellent insight and advise.

[Sgt. USMC]

In your experience, have you noticed a distinct difference between officers that are straight out of college/OCS (who enlisted 09s) and officers that have spent some time on the enlisted side? I'm specifically talking about: ability to lead effectively, decision making, professionalism, etc...

Your thoughts?

I'm a 09S too and from my experience being prior service I wouldn't waste my time going enlisted at all. The only reason why I went enlisted is because I wasn't close to being finished with college yet, but I went to school and finish my degree during my enlistment. Don't waste time going enlisted if you can help it. Your throwing away money for experience your going to get anyway plus you won't have to unlearn how to be enlisted like i'm going to have to.

[Theone]

You should consider the effect of enlisted to officer would have on your life outside the guard. Remember your part time, basic then ocs and bolc is a long time away from your job and family. If you can minimize that it's in your best interest to be just an officer. Regarding the there is no such thing as Nco business that's kind of laughable.