OCS vs NCO! Help?

[Tiana]

Ok so here's the deal. I can't decide which route I want to take. I'm currently a community college student who will be attending UC Berkeley full time when I return for the Spring of 2010. I've talked to the CPT in their ROTC dept and he told me that I'd still be able to commission as an officer w/o doing the first two years of ROTC because I'll have gone to basic and AIT. Yet, I still don't know which route I should take.

After I receive my BA (history) I plan on going to law school and going active duty as a JAG. But in the meantime, I don't know if I should wait until I graduate from UCB to start my ROTC program, or just continue going towards being an NCO. Any suggestions? Help? Thoughts?

[Chaplain4me]

If it were me I would do SMP ROTC.

a few reasons,

1) you are nondeployable (as an NCO you could be deployed while in college
2) the financial incentives are better than OCS (arguable)
3) you can apply for an educational extension, to delay your commission, so you can complete law school

But with OCS, you could knock it out faster, no getting up to PT 3-5 times a week at 0600.

If you went with Guard OCS you could have a hard time getting out of your contract to go active duty JAG. (I don't know never tried, could be wrong)

OCS ROTC same destination, different means.

I'm older I would go do the 18 month one weekend State OCS, but that's just taste.

There are perks to going the ROTC route.

Since you're in college seems like that would make the most sense. Knock it out in two years.

[Tiana]

If it were me I would do SMP ROTC.

a few reasons,

1) you are nondeployable (as an NCO you could be deployed while in college
2) the financial incentives are better than OCS (arguable)
3) you can apply for an educational extension, to delay your commission, so you can complete law school

But with OCS, you could knock it out faster, no getting up to PT 3-5 times a week at 0600.

If you went with Guard OCS you could have a hard time getting out of your contract to go active duty JAG. (I don't know never tried, could be wrong)

OCS ROTC same destination, different means.

I'm older I would go do the 18 month one weekend State OCS, but that's just taste.

There are perks to going the ROTC route.

Since you're in college seems like that would make the most sense. Knock it out in two years.

I'm already enlisted as a 63B, so there'd be no way to change it to 09s now, right? I'd have to apply for OCS after returning from basic and ait?

[tu.bui]

I don't want to barge in on your thread Tiana but I have a question ROTC related for a friend of mine..

1. Since BCT/AIT covers the first two years of ROTC, is it still reccomended to still take 4 years of ROTC? - a recruiter told me this because it aids you in the contracting process with ROTC. True?

2. If you have not completed BCT/AIT, and you contract with ROTC, are you required to go to BCT/AIT? Or is it just BCT and you come back? How does that work.

[PFCPiatt]

I don't want to barge in on your thread Tiana but I have a question ROTC related for a friend of mine..

1. Since BCT/AIT covers the first two years of ROTC, is it still reccomended to still take 4 years of ROTC? - a recruiter told me this because it aids you in the contracting process with ROTC. True?

2. If you have not completed BCT/AIT, and you contract with ROTC, are you required to go to BCT/AIT? Or is it just BCT and you come back? How does that work.


1.BCT/AIT replaces the first 2 years for a reason. Its basicly what ROTC cadets do just not in the same enviorment. Doing 2 years instead of 4 does not hurt you in any way.

2.If you take all 4 years of ROTC you are not required to take BCT/AIT. Thats why they have the option of replaceing the first 2 years with it or taking all 4 years.

[AmStew11]

I don't want to barge in on your thread Tiana but I have a question ROTC related for a friend of mine..

1. Since BCT/AIT covers the first two years of ROTC, is it still reccomended to still take 4 years of ROTC? - a recruiter told me this because it aids you in the contracting process with ROTC. True?

2. If you have not completed BCT/AIT, and you contract with ROTC, are you required to go to BCT/AIT? Or is it just BCT and you come back? How does that work.

I can't answer the first question, but if you do ROTC you are not required to attend basic/ROTC. At my school (and I'm assuming other schools with ROTC), you attend a six-week Basic Course over the summer if you have not completed basic/ait and are in a two-year program (last two years of undergrad or a grad student).

[Tiana]

I don't want to barge in on your thread Tiana but I have a question ROTC related for a friend of mine..

1. Since BCT/AIT covers the first two years of ROTC, is it still reccomended to still take 4 years of ROTC? - a recruiter told me this because it aids you in the contracting process with ROTC. True?


I had the same question, and I was told that it doesn't help you or hurt you ROTC-wise other than to be in better physical shape when you take the LDAC exam.

However, the sooner you join the ROTC program the more financial assistance you may recieve. If you're going straight to a four-year school, you can take a 3-year scholarship contract, which will knock off a year of paying for your own schooling. But if you're doing it the JC route, I'm not sure what options they offer.

But most importantly, note that you will lose your bonus if you accept an ROTC scholarship or join an ROTC program with an year of your enlistment date. So I have to wait until Jan '10 to actually join an ROTC program. If you still want to participate, just talk to the CPT who runs it. If I had the time, I'd workout with the CAL ROTC program 3 times a week and unoffically train with them.

Hope that helps.

[Chaim]

In the situation you describe I'd strongly consider going the NCO route for now. If you are sure you will be going to law school you may want to wait to do ROTC until law school so the Army will pay for law school. On the other hand, we often change our minds about what we are going to do even in the last two years of college, or something will come up and life will throw you a curve and what you planned won't happen even if you still want to do it (I planned to be a psychologist when I transferred from a 2 year college to a 4 year university and I'm a high school teacher even though I'd love to be a school or clinical psychologist). Of course, a lot of those things that may come up are often related to money, so if you are sure you will go into law school you may want to put off ROTC so it can pay for law school and take away the biggest factor that leads people to put off, or forgo altogether, their first choice.

[California Major]

California Military Academy OCS starts in the spring...Let's get that application going!

[SteveGuard]

Since it seems the "NCO" part of this discussion was never discussed.

What are some of the benefits for a Joe waiting to gain some experience as a small unit leader and gaining NCO knowledge prior to going through the officer route?

I'd like to see what some of the benefits or hindrances it can cause to a soldier if he chooses to wait to get NCO experience instead of going the officer route as soon as its available.

[chd]

I'm extremely happy that I decided to enlsit before becomming an officer. I know that commissioned officers aren't quick to admit it, but you can absolutely tell which officers were enlsited first versus those than went to ROTC and I think that it makes for a more respected leader among the enlisted. But that's not your question...

For me, I'm going to pursue a commission hopefully after I get an opportunity to deploy again next year and it's because of (a) the duties that I want, (b) the slots available to fulfill those duties and (c) long-term planning.

I am a leader and want to lead, but don't have the opportunity, given the plethora of 5-8 year SPC's in my company and state, to get promoted as quickly as I'd like. I also want to leave options open for the long-term and not lose money while deployed compared to my civilian career.

It all depends on what you want...

[batman]

I was an NCO on active duty, and the only thing I can tell you is, if I could do it all over again, I would have stayed at the E-4 ranks as long as I could have, if I knew my mission was to go the officer route. I never thought about doing the officer route, until I had like 80 credit hours then it dawned on me. Anyways, being E-4 and below you can go to school and not have the extra responsibility such as soldiers, training, whatever else the First Sergeant wants to put on your plate. If your a good NCO you hardly never have time to do anything cause the unit uses you more. At least where I was at. Looking back if I had knew officer was where I wanted to be in the long run, I would have stayed lower enlisted and just stayed in school as much as you can. And then boom your ready for OCS

[PalatialGabe]

If you're still a PFC, it'd take just as long to be an NCO as it does an Officer. Stick with SMP where at least you'll get NCO pay without NCO work.

[dnall]

Active duty JAG is extremely competitive to get. You need to do some research on that before you lock that in as your long-term goal, or at least have some solid back-up planning in place.

Another thing you can look into is getting an educational delay after completing your BA to attend law school. I was with a JAG officer at BOLC 2 that did that, and it was great for him. There's a lot of good options with that.

If that research doesn't produce some promising results, you can look at commissioning something else, and/or staying with the guard. There's a whole lot of lawyers in the guard doing something completely different in uniform. If I was sitting in an office all week getting paid well to do boring lawyer stuff, the last thing I'd want to do putting on this uniform on the wknd would be to do the same thing. I know lawyers flying apaches, leading infantry companies, you name it.

[Bingo]

Since it seems the "NCO" part of this discussion was never discussed.

What are some of the benefits for a Joe waiting to gain some experience as a small unit leader and gaining NCO knowledge prior to going through the officer route?

I'd like to see what some of the benefits or hindrances it can cause to a soldier if he chooses to wait to get NCO experience instead of going the officer route as soon as its available.

SteveGuard, I hope you enjoy this little story of mine which may shed some light. I doubt it will, but I will try!

One of my previous recruiters has a Masters Degree. I was waiting in line and the woman that came in was prior service Air Force. She was very snobbish to say the least and thought enlisting was beneath her since she was A/F. Personally I thought she ****** as a person and was wasting everyone's time.
She wanted OCS, but made everything more complicated and went on and on about how hard she worked and deserved to be an officer with her hardearned 90 credit hours. She the wants to know how she can prevent deployment and just stay where she is. She made a snide comment about who wants to be enlisted with a degree. He looked over at me and smiled because he knew I was laughing at the woman's entitlement problem, plus he knew I already had my BA and knew I was enlisting, I kept my mouth shut. For once.

After we both listened to how great she was with her 4 kids, husband in the military and her 90 hours at her top 50 community college. The polite recruiter finally shut her up long enough for her to listen and he made a remark about being an NCO with a MA. She was gasped. He said something along the lines, he planned to go the officer route too once upon a time, but by time he realized it, he "would have been the small fish in the big sea. As this way he was the big fish in the little sea." He felt it wouldn't make sense to start over.

Basically he would give up his status of senior/experienced NCO and commission as a 2nd Lt and be the guy on the bottom again.

[RedLeg]

I know that commissioned officers aren't quick to admit it, but you can absolutely tell which officers were enlsited first versus those than went to ROTC and I think that it makes for a more respected leader among the enlisted.

Being enlisted will not help you in being an officer. The two best officers I met were USMA graduates. The two worst officers were OCS graduates. Will prior enlisted service gain you some inital respect? Maybe, for the first drill until your Soldiers realize either your a good or poor leader.

I was a SPC before I went OCS. Being a SPC really didn't help me write risk assesments, OPORDS ect as I do as PL/CO.

A benefit of being enlisted is if you have a demanding job/school, then there is far less impact on your time.

[7011USMC]

[QUOTE][I was a SPC before I went OCS. Being a SPC really didn't help me write risk assesments, OPORDS ect as I do as PL/CO./QUOTE]

Very true! However, being that SPC you learned the art of getting out of details, passing the buck, and milking the system all the while making yourself look good!:D

[SGT Bart]

[QUOTE][I was a SPC before I went OCS. Being a SPC really didn't help me write risk assesments, OPORDS ect as I do as PL/CO./QUOTE]

Very true! However, being that SPC you learned the art of getting out of details, passing the buck, and milking the system all the while making yourself look good!:D


sham shields are the best....then those PFCICs (private first class in charge) telling all the privates what to do as they look around lol

[jmclaughlin1701]

Being enlisted will not help you in being an officer. The two best officers I met were USMA graduates. The two worst officers were OCS graduates. Will prior enlisted service gain you some inital respect? Maybe, for the first drill until your Soldiers realize either your a good or poor leader.

I was a SPC before I went OCS. Being a SPC really didn't help me write risk assesments, OPORDS ect as I do as PL/CO.

A benefit of being enlisted is if you have a demanding job/school, then there is far less impact on your time.

Exact opposite here. Best officers I've met were prior E5s before hitting OCS and the worst were USMA "entitled" personnel.

[Phantom]

I have Officers that I cant stand that are ROTC, OCS, West Point, and DC. At the same time I have Senior NCOs, I cant stand. I have a theory that I believe. I was always thinking if you were a jackas before, you will be a jackas after. You cant correct stupid or stubborn at the same time. My personal views, that are my own opinion, ROTC 2LTs dont know jack and need to shut up, and I always love to see a Mustang take charge and work. I also believe that 80% of most CSMs are in place due to dirty politics while the other SGMs do all the work to no credit. These are just my random thoughts and not starting a arguement, we all have opinions.

[7011USMC]

[QUOTE][You cant correct stupid or stubborn at the same time./QUOTE]

LOL....My 3rd wife sure did! It is no fun sleeping on couch, eating micro wave, and having "hall way intercourse".

[ParalegalNCO1]

Being enlisted will not help you in being an officer. The two best officers I met were USMA graduates. The two worst officers were OCS graduates. Will prior enlisted service gain you some inital respect? Maybe, for the first drill until your Soldiers realize either your a good or poor leader.

I was a SPC before I went OCS. Being a SPC really didn't help me write risk assesments, OPORDS ect as I do as PL/CO.

A benefit of being enlisted is if you have a demanding job/school, then there is far less impact on your time.

There is a huge difference in the statements "being enlisted will not help you in being an officer" and "I was a SPC before OCS"........

SPC's generally dont know jack. Some of the best officers I have seen were former NCO's who already knew how to lead. It depends on career field as well, but generally speaking a former E-6 or E-7 will make a great LT. A SPC is an overpaid private.

[SGT Bart]

[QUOTE][You cant correct stupid or stubborn at the same time./QUOTE]

LOL....My 3rd wife sure did! It is no fun sleeping on couch, eating micro wave, and having "hall way intercourse".


omg hallway intercourse LOLOL thatssss getting stolen. You the man

[Phantom]

[/QUOTE]omg hallway intercourse LOLOL thatssss getting stolen. You the man[/QUOTE]


You really need to get out more, thats not new, and quit sucking up to everyone, its making me gag, I like the old harsh Bart alot better, Kids have mellowed you out too much.

[SGT Bart]

omg hallway intercourse LOLOL thatssss getting stolen. You the man[/QUOTE]


You really need to get out more, thats not new, and quit sucking up to everyone, its making me gag, I like the old harsh Bart alot better, Kids have mellowed you out too much.[/QUOTE]


I have never heard of that LOL Apparently I need to get out more LOL I admit it....i have a mancrush on 7011. partly because he saved me thousands on car related issues. THATS RIGHT, I MANCRUSH ON HIM FOR HIS MONEY

[SGT Juggernaut]

Being enlisted will not help you in being an officer. The two best officers I met were USMA graduates. The two worst officers were OCS graduates. Will prior enlisted service gain you some inital respect? Maybe, for the first drill until your Soldiers realize either your a good or poor leader.

I was a SPC before I went OCS. Being a SPC really didn't help me write risk assesments, OPORDS ect as I do as PL/CO.

A benefit of being enlisted is if you have a demanding job/school, then there is far less impact on your time.

As a squad leader I have to write and prepare OPORDS all the time. I also conduct ALOT of training, so I put together CRM's, TE&O's, supply requests, etc all the **** time. Currently an E-5 in a E-6 position but what ever. A good experienced NCO can make a really great officer. We see both sides of the fence and have experience on both sides.

So for the OP becoming an NCO is not such a bad idea. Now that is talking strictly from a leading and managing stand point beefed up with some priceless experience. What is best in terms of paying for your tuition, better incentives etc is up to you to decide. I'm only 45 credit hours away from a BA, and I've been thinking about maybe going OCS when its all said and done, but I really really like being an NCO, so much so that I probably wont ever become an officer, just strive to become a SGM lol! The pay and retirement are the only thing that looks enticing about being an officer IMO(in a combat arms company anyway). However, for your goals, especially JAG I would say that doing the ROTC route is the best choice. As outlined earlier the incentives are great. Knowing how to write and prepare OPORDS, make a CRM sheet, put together a supply request, conduct training in a classroom and field environment are all good skills to have, but for JAG I doubt you will ever have to use much if any of that.

[49thadband]

another vote here for the IF, IF you are really doing law school, ROTC during Law school. you would have a pretty good SMP pay, E-5 over 4 and over 6 during your last year.

[LRSU_Dog]

If you are looking at becoming a JAG officer, check with your local JAG office for the actual in-print information on the req's. You may find that you do not need to go through an ROTC program if you will have a JD (Law Degree).

However, if you are years away from going/completing Law School then the 2 years of advanced ROTC may be right for you if you can handle the extra req's, responsibilities, and time you will have to devote to the program at the same time you are taking classes toward your initial degree.

You may consider OCS (Accelerated or traditional) if you are in good standing in the ARNG and want to accelerate your career goals as an officer. Either way, you need to speak directly with an Officer Recruiter to get the correct information if you are planning the Commissioned route.

OCS v NCO... that is a personal choice - best on making that decision! Neither a good Officer, nor a good NCO would make that choice without getting the correct info for thier personal TLP (formerly the 7 steps to problem solving) to correctly develop thier life/career OPORD... Yes.. I attended OCS... with the intent on that route - things changed and one thing I know is- "No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer, a leader of soldiers.."

[Polo08816]

In the situation you describe I'd strongly consider going the NCO route for now. If you are sure you will be going to law school you may want to wait to do ROTC until law school so the Army will pay for law school. On the other hand, we often change our minds about what we are going to do even in the last two years of college, or something will come up and life will throw you a curve and what you planned won't happen even if you still want to do it (I planned to be a psychologist when I transferred from a 2 year college to a 4 year university and I'm a high school teacher even though I'd love to be a school or clinical psychologist). Of course, a lot of those things that may come up are often related to money, so if you are sure you will go into law school you may want to put off ROTC so it can pay for law school and take away the biggest factor that leads people to put off, or forgo altogether, their first choice.

Do you think most people can handle law school + ROTC at the same time?

[a224932]

Do you think most people can handle law school + ROTC at the same time?

No way. The first semester of law school is **** and you should not do anything else. There are a couple of military guys in my class, but all are either active duty or reserve. No ROTC guys. In fact the ABA requires 1L's (first year law students) to not work for the first semester. Theoretically, you could do it if you were going to law school part-time, but I think part-time law school is a bad idea.

My disclaimer is that I am not in the military, and never took ROTC. However, I am graduating from law school in four weeks. I am interested in joining the ARG and had many of the same questions asked in this thread. I am in the process of getting back into shape (three years of law school will get you out of shape) and starting the enlistment process in March.

I am not an expert on anything military (except maybe history) but am willing to address any questions about law school any of you might have.

Any other attorneys/law students here?

[49thadband]

isn't law school three years?

Iow, shouldn't someone plan to attend ROTC during the last two years of law school? here is a plan for someone with loans and a B.S.

1. join guard, go to basic + AIT, get SLRP.
2. start law school, you're an E-4, you're getting GI bill, maybe kicker + drill pay, tuition assistance
3. after first year of law school join ROTC, go SMP, get all of the above benefits, + maybe scholarship if you're interested.

sounds easy enough to me, just have to plan to go to basic+AIT.